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Old 10-14-2014, 09:50 PM   #21
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Marin,
Yes I can see Ray Hunt stands out all over that Eastbay. Very typical of his hulls. His pure form deep Vee is constant in it's deadrise and the Eastbay has the wider range of appeal warped bottom (gets flatter w less deadrise as one goes aft) but is still plenty deep for an excellent ride and lower power requirements.

Can hardly miss if you've got a Ray Hunt hull.
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Old 10-14-2014, 11:30 PM   #22
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Since the majority of threads discuss fast trawlers, it would make more sense to have a thread entitled "real trawlers" of the recreational kind, not that I'm recommending it.
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Old 10-15-2014, 05:47 AM   #23
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Greetings,
Mr. mp. Hmm...A thread entitled "real trawlers"? I sort of think that's been covered several times (too many IMO) already. "Real trawlers are about as contentious as "real anchors"....
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Old 10-15-2014, 06:56 AM   #24
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Fast, semi displacement trawlers (to use the trawler term loosely) are the norm today. Very few trawlers are round bottom pure displacement hulls. It is easier to note which are not semi displacement than those which are. Nordhavns, Krogens are two that are full displacement trawlers. Beneteaus, Mainships, Grand Banks, Sabres, Nordic Tugs, etc are all semi displacement.

Semi displacement hulls are less efficient than round bottom displacement hulls at displacement speeds. The angular lifting planes on a semi displacement hull jus

Semi displacement hulls have big engines to push them to 10 kts and above. But can you safely run those big engines slow and cruise at or below displacement speeds?

The question is controversial, but I believe that if you run the engine at enough power loading to keep the cooling water and oil at operating temperatures then you will not do any damage. Coincidently that power level is just about the rpm and power setting needed to reach displacement speed.

So I run the 370 hp Yanmar in my Mainship Pilot 34 at 1,600 rpm and it goes about 7 kts, just below displacement speed. BTW the accepted definition of displacement speed is 1.34 * sqrt(water line length).

Weight becomes a big factor in semi-displacement hull efficiency, mostly because you are using a lot more fuel than a displacement hull at all speeds and much more fuel the faster you go.

It is interesting to note the differences in a low cost, mass produced trawler like the Mainship Pilot 34 and a high end one like a MJM 34. The Mainship claims that the Pilot 34 weighs 15,000 lbs and the MJM claims that their 34Z weighs 10,600 lbs. The difference if is is real is mostly due to fiberglass layup techniques. MJM claims that their 34Z uses 30% less fuel than their competitors and I can believe it if their weight is correct.

Semi displacement trawlers come in several hull types: classic flybridge models like the Grand Banks; pilot house, tug style like the Nordic Tug and downeaster style hardtops like the Mainship Pilot 34. And lots of variations in between.
Learning a lot here. Had no idea that some GBs and Nordic Tugs were SD.

My Beneteau Swift 44 has 2 Volvo D4's/300 hp. I doubt that these would be classified as "big engines".

I have seen no cooling problems running at FD speed, which I suppose is less than 10 knots.

At 1,250 RPM's she'll make 8 kn. total burn 3.6 GPH. We typically run around 2,850 RPM's, making around 17 kn., burning 19 GPH. WOT is 3,600 / 24 kn.

At around 25,000 lbs. (light) with a huge flybridge it makes sense that we're in for an uncomfortable ride in anything but a following sea.

Will find out as we get more experience with her, but I'm pretty sure that in rough conditions we'll be moving slowly until we can get tied up.

Mostly just asking. Agree?
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Old 10-15-2014, 11:10 AM   #25
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manyboats posts a nice PIX below showing a FD hull at about max speed. Notice the large stern wave and depressed water midships. You cant see it but there should be a wave forward. That wavelength the same as hull length is what limits speed. To go faster it would have to climb over the bow wave.
PS that in not a very efficient speed because of all the wave making despite the smooth stern water flow.

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Old 01-24-2015, 09:31 PM   #26
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Manyboats you stated in#10: 95% of the boats here are semi-disp types. How do you know this?
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Old 01-24-2015, 10:08 PM   #27
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Learning a lot here. Had no idea that some GBs and Nordic Tugs were SD.
I know the comment above was from last year, but in case the poster is reading, ALL GBs except the latest models are semi-planing (I prefer this term to semi-displacement after reading naval architect Tom Fexas' reasons why semi-planing is the more accurate term). All of them-- GB32, 36, 42, 46, 48, 49, and 52-- use the same Kenneth Smith-designed hull shape from 1964 or thereabouts.

Only the latest models-- the GB44 aka 47, and the GB41 with the pod drives-- have new, planing (sort of) hull designs.

The Eastbay, while manufactured by the company now known as Grand Banks (formerly American Marine), is its own brand with its own model lineup. As such, Eastbays are not Grand Banks. Nor are Aleutians, the Grand Banks company's "big boat" model that is available in several sizes.
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Old 01-24-2015, 11:24 PM   #28
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The Eastbay, while manufactured by the company now known as Grand Banks (formerly American Marine), is its own brand with its own model lineup. As such, Eastbays are not Grand Banks. Nor are Aleutians, the Grand Banks company's "big boat" model that is available in several sizes.
Then why do they have Grand Banks labels and are built by Grand Banks and marketed by them? I know your point is that they're departures from what is now known as the Heritage models.
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Old 01-25-2015, 12:15 AM   #29
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21/22K lbs loaded; 34' Tollycraft tri cabin twin screw travels really well and comfortable at:

5 nmph, 6.5 to 7 nmph, 16 to 17 nmph and 21 to 22 nmph (WOT).

Gph respectively:

2.75 + nmpg (running only one screw), 1.75 to2 nmpg (running twins), 1 +/- nmpg at planing cruise, ??? nmpg (at WOT- never spend time to get a consumption reading there)

Talking all we want regarding boats and boat bottoms... it's been my experience... FD is fine for some. For me, regarding mid sized pleasure cruisers - SD and FP is the way to go, for too many reasons to list here!
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Old 01-25-2015, 12:45 AM   #30
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When I find myself in one of these discussions, I prefer to avoid the great arguments on hull design, but prefer to look at the results. There are the 8-10 knot boats. Then those from 12-20 knots. Then those above. And a good many of the boats here fit in the two slower groups. When it comes to separating the 18 knot boats and the 24 knot and talking SD I also prefer the semi-planing term) vs. Planing, talking hull design gets quite confusing as the only difference in some of those boats in horsepower. Give me enough HP on any SD and I'll be planing.
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Old 01-25-2015, 01:22 AM   #31
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Then why do they have Grand Banks labels and are built by Grand Banks and marketed by them? I know your point is that they're departures from what is now known as the Heritage models.
Fords and Continentals are both built and marketed by Ford but we don't call Continentals Fords. Same thing.

Our harbor is home to the PNW Grand Banks dealer. They sell Eastbays, too, but they don't call or promote Eastbays as Grand Banks.
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Old 01-25-2015, 01:41 AM   #32
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Our harbor is home to the PNW Grand Banks dealer. They sell Eastbays, too, but they don't call or promote Eastbays as Grand Banks.
And now Palm Beach is part of the equation.

But it all won't matter if they don't get their act together. Last quarter was horrible (Sept 30) and I suspect Dec 31 no better. And their stock has been back on a downward spiral. The market cap of the entire company is down to under $30 million and that's after the acquisition. They've had their inside fighting since Livingston tried to sell the company three or four years ago. Mark Richards winning Sydney-Hobart doesn't go to the bottom line. Last quarter, sales were down 31%. I wish someone could magically pick them up and put them in a factory in the PNW and sell some boats.
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Old 01-25-2015, 02:26 AM   #33
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And now Palm Beach is part of the equation.

But it all won't matter if they don't get their act together....
Worse still, "Palm Beach" is named after a famous northern Sydney beach, Pacific ocean one side, Pittwater on the other. A very expensive suburb mostly for the seriously rich and famous, where prime houses bring massive rentals at holiday peak times. Not Palm Beach Fl.
But, only we know that, most US buyers won`t. If it matters, which I doubt.
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Old 01-25-2015, 02:38 AM   #34
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Worse still, "Palm Beach" is named after a famous northern Sydney beach, Pacific ocean one side, Pittwater on the other. A very expensive suburb mostly for the seriously rich and famous, where prime houses bring massive rentals at holiday peak times. Not Palm Beach Fl.
But, only we know that, most US buyers won`t. If it matters, which I doubt.
Actually it has the same connotation in the US. The county north of Fort Lauderdale. Kennedy and Trump estates over the years.
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Old 01-25-2015, 09:06 AM   #35
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And now Palm Beach is part of the equation.

But it all won't matter if they don't get their act together. Last quarter was horrible (Sept 30) and I suspect Dec 31 no better. And their stock has been back on a downward spiral. The market cap of the entire company is down to under $30 million and that's after the acquisition. They've had their inside fighting since Livingston tried to sell the company three or four years ago. Mark Richards winning Sydney-Hobart doesn't go to the bottom line. Last quarter, sales were down 31%. I wish someone could magically pick them up and put them in a factory in the PNW and sell some boats.
Sounds eerily similar as to what befell Tollycraft in mid 90's. Great boat builders simply do not always last forever, no matter how hard their original or acquired leaders try. On a good note: Because the boats were built so well there will be plenty available as "used" for decades into the future while pleasure boaters enjoy the waters!
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Old 01-25-2015, 02:36 PM   #36
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Sounds eerily similar as to what befell Tollycraft in mid 90's. Great boat builders simply do not always last forever, no matter how hard their original or acquired leaders try. On a good note: Because the boats were built so well there will be plenty available as "used" for decades into the future while pleasure boaters enjoy the waters!
Well, they have some owners who wanted to sell and others who want to make it work in Malaysia and won't sell at any price. The offer they had three years ago was for over 50% more than current price. I applaud the commitment some of the largest shareholders have to Malaysia, but it's not a logical place to build, especially a boat that 2/3 of the sales are in the US. Just my humble opinion that you could build and deliver for less from the US. Or the other alternative would be China where you could build for considerably less. They reported substantial losses in Europe last year and even greater losses in "other places", other than US and Europe, so primarily Asia, I assume. Management salaries are that you'd expect from a successful company 4 times their size.

Putting Mark Richards in charge sure seems more a public relations than wise business move, but I guess they were impressed with the job he did with Palm Beach. And as to their integration plans, they've said they'll keep building Palm Beach in Australia but at the same time done new tooling and moulds and shipped those to Malaysia to build some Palm Beach there. Say they can scale up Palm Beach and point out their enlarged range of yachts. But Palm Beach to me just looks like competition to Eastbay.

Regardless, now they offer a total of 18 hulls, 25 total models as some are Express and Flybridge, across 4 lines. This is for a company doing the rate of $25 million a year in sales. 25 models and assuming an average price of $1.2 million even then that's a pace of 20 boats a year being sold with 13 of them in the US and 7 for the rest of the world.

Yes, sounds a lot like Tollycraft and many others and it's sad for me to watch. In this case it sure seems to an outsider like stubbornness, mismanagement and a "go down with the ship attitude". I have no doubt a plant could be set up in Washington and sales increased and the company profitable.

I have tried to remain hopeful and have an acquaintance getting a GB built now, even a Heritage model. I will say that to my knowledge so far they have maintained quality. I came very close to buying one myself. To me they still offer a nearly perfect loop boat.
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Old 01-25-2015, 03:36 PM   #37
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Well, they have some owners who wanted to sell and others who want to make it work in Malaysia and won't sell at any price. The offer they had three years ago was for over 50% more than current price. I applaud the commitment some of the largest shareholders have to Malaysia, but it's not a logical place to build, especially a boat that 2/3 of the sales are in the US. Just my humble opinion that you could build and deliver for less from the US. Or the other alternative would be China where you could build for considerably less. They reported substantial losses in Europe last year and even greater losses in "other places", other than US and Europe, so primarily Asia, I assume. Management salaries are that you'd expect from a successful company 4 times their size.

Putting Mark Richards in charge sure seems more a public relations than wise business move, but I guess they were impressed with the job he did with Palm Beach. And as to their integration plans, they've said they'll keep building Palm Beach in Australia but at the same time done new tooling and moulds and shipped those to Malaysia to build some Palm Beach there. Say they can scale up Palm Beach and point out their enlarged range of yachts. But Palm Beach to me just looks like competition to Eastbay.

Regardless, now they offer a total of 18 hulls, 25 total models as some are Express and Flybridge, across 4 lines. This is for a company doing the rate of $25 million a year in sales. 25 models and assuming an average price of $1.2 million even then that's a pace of 20 boats a year being sold with 13 of them in the US and 7 for the rest of the world.

Yes, sounds a lot like Tollycraft and many others and it's sad for me to watch. In this case it sure seems to an outsider like stubbornness, mismanagement and a "go down with the ship attitude". I have no doubt a plant could be set up in Washington and sales increased and the company profitable.

I have tried to remain hopeful and have an acquaintance getting a GB built now, even a Heritage model. I will say that to my knowledge so far they have maintained quality. I came very close to buying one myself. To me they still offer a nearly perfect loop boat.
So BB - What if GB was the producer to install a proprietary, trade secret automated hull and deck building technique for construction? I believe their factory could be moved back into USA due to labor reductions. This boat-building method would be uniquely revolutionary and it holds potential to place as much of a "new-alternative" to building pleasure crafts as FRP did to wood and steel. Unlike when FRP came in to play... With today's improved testing techniques the longevity of this new product could easily be assimilated via testing procedures. The build-out technique and material combinations are unlike those previously utilized. Weights would be reduced, build-out would quicken, strengths would increase, costs would diminish. Finished surface could last longer. Some engineering is required to perfect the build-out machine and material combinations used. Can this be done??? - - > Could FRP be done??? - of course it was and can be done! Is the pleasure cruiser industry ready for a cost cutting, quality improving breakthrough... you make the call!
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Old 01-25-2015, 03:49 PM   #38
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Well to get back to something other than GB politics:

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What was your opinion of the interior layout of the Mainship P34- Don or David?
The upper cabin layout is basic: two wide helm and passenger seats and a 5' bench seat on each side behind. The cockpit is nice and deep and can easily fit two on lounge chairs.

The main cabin has a U-shaped dinette to stbd and the galley and head to port with a V-berth forward.

So it is a plain but functional layout. IMO it is better than the Albin 28, Back Cove 29 or 34, but not as nice as the newer Back Cove 30. The latter is one of my favorite small downeast cruising boats. Well let's not forget the MJM 34 but that is in a different league altogether.

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Old 01-25-2015, 04:20 PM   #39
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So BB - What if GB was the producer to install a proprietary, trade secret automated hull and deck building technique for construction? I believe their factory could be moved back into USA due to labor reductions. This boat-building method would be uniquely revolutionary and it holds potential to place as much of a "new-alternative" to building pleasure crafts as FRP did to wood and steel. Unlike when FRP came in to play... With today's improved testing techniques the longevity of this new product could easily be assimilated via testing procedures. The build-out technique and material combinations are unlike those previously utilized. Weights would be reduced, build-out would quicken, strengths would increase, costs would diminish. Finished surface could last longer. Some engineering is required to perfect the build-out machine and material combinations used. Can this be done??? - - > Could FRP be done??? - of course it was and can be done! Is the pleasure cruiser industry ready for a cost cutting, quality improving breakthrough... you make the call!
An efficient plant and modern techniques do a lot for any builder. There has actually been one revolutionary in that regard in my boating lifetime. Orin Edson, founder of Bayliner. Now, I'd add to that Westport, which he just sold. They don't run their manufacturing like most boat builders, but more like Boeing in terms of planning and efficiency beginning to end. I doubt there is another boat manufacturer in the world as efficient as they are. My career was in manufacturing and I've walked through some boat factories including very prestigious brands and been shocked at how they're run.

Walk through a typical boat factory and then go tour Boeing. And if you want to stick to boat factories, then walk through Sea Ray's Tennessee facility and then through most trawler or yacht facilities and see the difference.

How does all this apply to semi-planing trawlers? It impacts our future choices and affordability. Sea Ray doesn't just outsell all semi-planing trawlers because people prefer the boat, but they do it because of price and their price is achieved because of their methods.
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Old 01-25-2015, 04:45 PM   #40
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An efficient plant and modern techniques do a lot for any builder. There has actually been one revolutionary in that regard in my boating lifetime. Orin Edson, founder of Bayliner. Now, I'd add to that Westport, which he just sold. They don't run their manufacturing like most boat builders, but more like Boeing in terms of planning and efficiency beginning to end. I doubt there is another boat manufacturer in the world as efficient as they are. My career was in manufacturing and I've walked through some boat factories including very prestigious brands and been shocked at how they're run.

Walk through a typical boat factory and then go tour Boeing. And if you want to stick to boat factories, then walk through Sea Ray's Tennessee facility and then through most trawler or yacht facilities and see the difference.

How does all this apply to semi-planing trawlers? It impacts our future choices and affordability. Sea Ray doesn't just outsell all semi-planing trawlers because people prefer the boat, but they do it because of price and their price is achieved because of their methods.
Understood.


This end-product-improved, cost reducing, completion expediting, and weight limiting build-out process and material-mix I mention is like nothing on the table at this time, for any style boat. Far as I know... regarding hulls and decks.
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