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Old 07-08-2014, 12:32 PM   #81
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Bayliners are bashed by the uninformed (or elitists)...which in my experience is over 90% of all boaters...just walk around a boat show and talk not only to shoppers..but people standing in booths....downright scary...

The older small Bayliners just like Sea rays and many other manufacturers back in the day used to staple outdoor porch carpeting to exterior plywood and call it a deck.

After a decade or so...lakes and bays were full of small boats with rotten decks...if the name was still on it...many people associated that name with junk boats.

Some manufactures quickly retooled and changed marketing strategy ...but some slower than others...many died and some just were left in the dust for a bit....like Bayliner (maybe never in sales..but surely reputation).

Bayliner Motoryacht division never has had a poor reputation among marine industry professionals that I have been acquainted with.... nor knowledgeable boaters....they may have been near the bottom of the larger boat lines as many would think but never though of being unsafe and and to more than a few a threat to their own line of boats....

An upper level Sea Ray executive and I discussed 2 dollar parts and how they play a role in marketing...and even before Marine Max became Bayliner dealers...that exec said he had nightmares during boatshows due to Bayliner nipping at their heels and threatening to really make Sea Ray sales a huge challenge.
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Old 07-08-2014, 12:46 PM   #82
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Like any large manufacturer Bayliner produced a multitude of models, from inexpensive entry level ski boats to the 5788, a large motoryacht by any measure.

Does anybody think less of the Z06 Corvette, or the Surburban, just because Chevy made the Vega? No they don't, and it should be the same with boats.

Good point had't thought of. Thanks.
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Old 07-08-2014, 12:59 PM   #83
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Values?
Let me tell ya'll a fact (as told to me by a good friend who was the Bayliner dealer for Palm Beach, Broward, and Miami Dade Counties since 1959) about the value of the products. When Brunswick bought Bayliner, they paid FIVE HUNDRED MILLION DOLLARS.. when they bought Sea Ray they paid Fifty Million.
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Old 07-08-2014, 01:59 PM   #84
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Kevin (ksanders) wrote;
"Just so you guys know from a guy that has actually owned 6 ocean going Bayliners and has taken all of them apart....".

Wait till FF sees that "ocean going Bayliners" .. Haha I'd love to be a fly on the wall.

As to the rest of your post Kevin a fully agree and it's a shame people feel that way about Bayliners. I've never had any Bayliner experience and as to "committee designed"BL probably had multiple NAs working on the designs so they're not designed by construction workers, welder's or truck drivers. I do see a lot of design features on Bayliners that I like but I'm not a NA either. But I feel bad about you guys taking all that flack. I think there's no basis for 95% of it but then I really don't know.

I worked at Uniflite (hull const. and drafting/engineering) and have been inside other boat plants and most are built basically the same.
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Old 07-08-2014, 02:49 PM   #85
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Well it must have worked just fine as many Bayliners have cruised extensively and I haven't heard of any major structural failure...

Yes of course there may have been some...but I'm sure the word would have spread quickly throughout the marine industry....which it isn't/hasn't.
And you won't- because there hasn't been any major calamities plaguing Bayliner...unless you count the uninformed kooks that speak without thinking.

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Just so you guys know from a guy that has actually owned 6 ocean going Bayliners and has taken all of them apart....

On every bayliner I've owned the deck was through bolted to the hull every few inches.

The hulls are fiberglass. On the 2859 the hull was over 3/4" solid fiberglass. On the 4788 the hull is over an inch, then there's a rigid foam core followed by a interior fiberglass layoup of over 1/2". Unlike some other quite famous boat hull manufacturers, there has not been a documented failure, or delamination of a Bayliner hull.

To the poster that indicated that

"At one time it seamed as if Bayliners sales philosophy was to sell big boats cheaply to folks that didnt have a clew what a big boat is."

does not have any notion of that whatsoever. Seriously??? Bayliner was a company like any other. They built their yachts IN AMERICA thank you just like other boat builders of that era (their competition) such as Uniflite and Tollycraft. They sold them to whomever could pay for them just like any other company.

I would caution to be careful when we come up with generalizations about boat brands here. There are a few of us on TF that know our Bayliners inside and out, so you better know your stuff, and know it well, because we will respond, and as you can see very quickly.
I've owned 4 (16' Capri, 23' Trophy, 38' MY, 40' Aft Cabin). and enjoyed every one. I had no major problems that are not common to any boat (like pump failures) and operated them up and down the west coast from Ensenada to the Pacific Northwest.

When I was the business Manager for Lake Union Sea Ray, I remember the sales staff bashing the Bayliners from Olympic Boats just down the road.....until Lake Union Sea Ray acquired the Bayliner brand. Suddenly, the Sea Ray sales staff was praising the lowly Bayliner, and has no trouble telling clients that the runabout models of both were made in the same plant in Knoxville.....

It's all about the perception.
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Old 07-08-2014, 04:37 PM   #86
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For the record, I have no issues with Bayliners. They fit that part of the market better than anyone. They are sea worthy boats, just look at some of Ksanders trips across the Gulf of Alaska!
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Old 07-08-2014, 04:54 PM   #87
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We shopped and researched a lot of boats and ended up with our 08 490. We felt that the pilothouse Bayliners and Meridians were an exceptional value with great versatility. I too was put off by the Bayliner name but had always been told that the motor yachts were great boats for the money.
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Old 07-08-2014, 04:56 PM   #88
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I currently own a 340SB, purchased new in 2009. Due to the then prevailing market conditions, I was able to practically "steal" the boat (I dealt directly with the Brunswick rep at a Cabela's boat show during a Mother's Day event that year.)

Anyway, they had a variety of makes/models available and as I wasn't (or so I thought) actually looking to purchase anything at the time (the ex wasn't a boater; now you know why she's the "ex") I was only casually walking about, i.e. not initially looking at the brand names on the sides of each hull. After boarding several of the yachts they had on hand, I was truly amazed at the comparisons I was beginning to make between the Bayliner, the Meridans, and the SeaRays all on the hard in the parking lot. When I boarded the 340SB, it didn't take a minute to realize the parts being used were all the same. Now there was differences in the thickness of the stone countertops and other small non-marine type products. But the power systems, electrical, switches, hardware and the other important stuff was near identical. Did I mention the 340 had Axius installed on the Seacore Bravo III's?

I could go on however the point of the story was that at 60% off the MSRP and with my current (convenient) access to water being a large lake, there really was no ignoring the financial logic of this decision. The 340SB won hands down. (60% off helped me realize really quickly I was in the market for a new boat.)

I've been boating since I was pre-teen. I've heard all of the stories about which manufacturer is "better", etc. From my helm seat it all comes down to intended use. Yes, as post #19 points out very accurately, there was a time when perhaps entry-level folk who purchased 16' Capri's with a motor and trailer combo (I think Bayliner was the first to market a boat/trailer/outboard pkg - remember the Force ne: Chrysler OBs?) often didn't bother learning the proper way to launch, steer a boat, or tie up. However, I continue to see that each and every weekend with the newer (younger?) generation now having mom or dad purchase 70+ mph Baja's and wakeboard boats.

As I rapidly approach retirement and my boating will move back to the salt water and hopefully become a live-aboard, I am back to looking at what fits my purpose. Maybe I can find that jewel of a Hat, Trojan or a Viking or other well-known brand for another song and sail (okay, power) into the sunset as the newer passagemaker and true trawlers are still out of my financial reach :-) . However I have never had a moments doubt or frustration with this 2009 model or the two times I've had to have (minor) warranty work performed by Brunswick. I cannot say that about some of the other manufacturers that I've owned.

:cheers:
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Old 07-08-2014, 09:55 PM   #89
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1993 was the last year the 38's and 32's were constructed. Just so you know.
Yes you are absolutely correct!! I meant late 80's. I wirked there from 88 to 90 in Arlington. The 32's, 38's, and 45's were all built in the same place I was working in. My bad.
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Old 07-08-2014, 10:05 PM   #90
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Pierce, that is extremely interesting. Can you give us an idea of how the bull/deck joint was secured, and the hull and deck were laid up. Boats without an inner glass lining I think of as furniture built boats. Most furniture built boats have the bulkheads "tabbed" or fully bonded st the sides and tops. That is the way that Moonstruck is constructed. That makes the structure more rigid. It seems to me that the Bayliners had to have superior glass work in the bull and deck as they have held up for years. Many are still great boats.
The bulkheads themselves are glasses into the hull, but the entire deck, at least in the galley area forward, just lays onto top. There is no bonding to the bulkhead. My untrained engineering mind thought, gee I wonder how the torsenal rigidity is? Please forgive my poor spelling.
Apparently they did a good job designing and engineering those boats as I see them all over the place here in Puget Sound.
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Old 07-09-2014, 11:40 AM   #91
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we shopped and researched a lot of boats and ended up with our 08 490. We felt that the pilothouse bayliners and meridians were an exceptional value with great versatility. I too was put off by the bayliner name but had always been told that the motor yachts were great boats for the money.
sweet photos!!!
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Old 07-10-2014, 06:58 AM   #92
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bayliners.

I like that reverse camera setup you've got. Might do something similar on mine. Great way to keep an eye on the tender when underway


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Old 07-10-2014, 09:13 AM   #93
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Bayliners rap comes from people not understanding the difference between their smaller boats and their cruisers, motoryachts. Their small boats were built for entry level and lake use. However, their larger boats were built in Arlington, Washington and reflected the PNW construction quality. Brunswick only dropped the Bayliner cruisers because of pricing. They changed it to Meridian at a higher price. Subsequently production has moved and much more has changed.

Bayliner (again referring only to the cruiser, trawler, and motoryacht type) has to my knowledge and that of those very close to the line, never had a lamination failure in all these years. I wish the line as it once was still existed. I think of them in some ways like I would baby Pacific Mariners or Westports. If you take Bayliner below 65' and then the Pacific Mariner 65 (no longer produced) and the PM 85, then on up through WP from 98-164 you can easily see some similarities.

As to the Bayliner runabouts. Well, basically changed the industry. Made boating available, especially new boats, to a group of buyers previously priced out of the market.
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Old 07-10-2014, 09:17 AM   #94
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Values?
Let me tell ya'll a fact (as told to me by a good friend who was the Bayliner dealer for Palm Beach, Broward, and Miami Dade Counties since 1959) about the value of the products. When Brunswick bought Bayliner, they paid FIVE HUNDRED MILLION DOLLARS.. when they bought Sea Ray they paid Fifty Million.
Well, actually those numbers aren't correct. Sea Ray was purchased in 1986 for $350 million. Bayliner was purchased in 1986 for $425 million. Still, Bayliner was the largest selling brand and did cost more.
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Old 07-10-2014, 01:06 PM   #95
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Let me quote a Florida yacht broker who wrote this on the old Passagemaker forum about ten years ago. "It is better to be cruising in a Bayliner than standing on the beach watching the Nordhavns cruise by."
When I wrote that I said we can exchange Bayliner for Mainship or Sea Ray or any brand of boat less expensive than a Nordhavn. They are all great value boats for coastal cruising for much less than an ocean crossing vessel and not many boaters need an ocean crosser.
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Old 07-10-2014, 01:52 PM   #96
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Let me quote a Florida yacht broker who wrote this on the old Passagemaker forum about ten years ago. "It is better to be cruising in a Bayliner than standing on the beach watching the Nordhavns cruise by."
When I wrote that I said we can exchange Bayliner for Mainship or Sea Ray or any brand of boat less expensive than a Nordhavn. They are all great value boats for coastal cruising for much less than an ocean crossing vessel and not many boaters need an ocean crosser.
Until two years ago our cruising was on an inland lake. 30' Cobalt was our last boat there. I knew someone with a 51' Sundancer and they enjoyed it as their boat and lake cabin. We lived on the lake and wouldn't have traded our boat for theirs.

There are so many good boats available. People just need to define their needs and find the boat that best matches. We talk Nordhavn. I think they're a very good boat and I have no desire to own one. Our "play" boat, clearly not a Trawler and not what we're on at the moment, is a Riva and we've heard them called Euro-trash, why would anyone want a boat that used so much fuel, don't need to run more than 8 knots (it runs 40), won't ride like a trawler (true). It's about when we want to boat like we did on the lake, just the lake is much bigger. Not about cruising. One person will say only steel. I have great friends in the Netherlands and to them if it's not a Dutch boat, it's garbage. We got into talking Bayliner here and I'll tell you that the founder of Bayliner (who just sold Westport) still takes tremendous pride in the Bayliner Pilothouses. I'm not sure there's ever been a boat in it's range and price.

We so love boating and think there is no recreation to compare. I applaud any type boat that gets more people on the water, especially families. To me there's a sadness that for the average family with a couple of kids it's not affordable. I grew up boating. Wasn't a big boat. Father's fishing boat, then 17' Sea Ray and from there. It was never the boat, but the water. I love that builders like Chaparral with their H2O line and Glastron with their small outboard line and aluminum small boat builders are offering some entry level options. In trawlers and cruisers, I wish there was a builder like Bayliner was, even like Mainship and Carver once were. And while it's popular for yacht owners and trawler owners to look down on Sea Ray, well they've brought more pleasure to more people than any of the brands the rest of us own. No, I'm not going to buy a Sea Ray and circumnavigate the globe, but most people don't cross oceans. Oh and I'm very thankful that since some of the building innovations or the last 70's, the 80's and the 90's there are some incredible older boats that people can get into and have tremendous pleasure and happiness.
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Old 07-10-2014, 02:14 PM   #97
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What Bayliner did, and I think it was a very good marketing move was to build brand loyalty.

Our first boat was a Bayliner 19' Cuddy cabin. We liked the boat, it worked well.

When we looked at bigger boats the 24 and 28' pilothouse models looked to use to be made for the Pacific NW conditions. We trusted the brand, and saw the value for the dollar and bought both models over time.

As we aged and our needs changed we looked at several brands of pilothouse liveaboard size coastal cruisers. In the end we chose the 4788 pilothouse.

Part of that was that we trusted Bayliner. More so was that we, liked the interior layout. It is very livable with straight and relativly few stairs, and all the features you need for extended life aboard.
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Old 07-10-2014, 03:02 PM   #98
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What Bayliner did, and I think it was a very good marketing move was to build brand loyalty.

Our first boat was a Bayliner 19' Cuddy cabin. We liked the boat, it worked well.

When we looked at bigger boats the 24 and 28' pilothouse models looked to use to be made for the Pacific NW conditions. We trusted the brand, and saw the value for the dollar and bought both models over time.

As we aged and our needs changed we looked at several brands of pilothouse liveaboard size coastal cruisers. In the end we chose the 4788 pilothouse.

Part of that was that we trusted Bayliner. More so was that we, liked the interior layout. It is very livable with straight and relativly few stairs, and all the features you need for extended life aboard.
Growing up on the East Coast, I didn't know the Bayliner history or heritage. But it's clear on the pilothouse models that the heritage was very much PNW. But considering the founder was from the PNW and they started there, it all makes sense.
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Old 07-10-2014, 04:43 PM   #99
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Let me quote a Florida yacht broker who wrote this on the old Passagemaker forum about ten years ago. "It is better to be cruising in a Bayliner than standing on the beach watching the Nordhavns cruise by."
When I wrote that I said we can exchange Bayliner for Mainship or Sea Ray or any brand of boat less expensive than a Nordhavn. They are all great value boats for coastal cruising for much less than an ocean crossing vessel and not many boaters need an ocean crosser.

I'll expand on that a little to say...

"Its better to be cruising in your Bayliner than sitting in your office another decade to pay for your Nordhavn(or other million dollar boat)."

I've said this before but here it goes again...

Life is a tradeoff. A tradeoff of time vs money. Unless you win the life lottery and "strike it rich" by whatever means, you are trading your time for money. Surgeons trade time for money, Executives trade time for money, construction workers trade time for money. We all do it.

Like probably more than a few TF members I could today walk into a boat brokers office, pick a million dollar boat and consummate the sale. I have the liquidity, the income, and no debt except my boat. I'm probably a model million dollar boat buyer.

The problem is that I'd be promising years of my life away. Good years too. Years I'd have to continue to work to pay for the boat. That commitment would delay my retirement by several years. Probably close to a decade I'm guessing. A decade may not mean much at 25 but at 55 it can mean everything.

Several years ago I called on a FSBO boat in Washington. The owner told me he was a surgeon. He said he had equipped his boat for his dream of cruising to Alaska. The best of everything. Then he told me that he waited too long. He had a stroke and cannot ever take the boat on his dream trip. You could hear the sadness in his voice. He gambled with time and lost.

I'm not willing to take that risk. Too much at stake.

I'll cruise in my Bayliner.
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Old 07-10-2014, 05:34 PM   #100
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Ksanders my thoughts exactlyClick image for larger version

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