Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
 
Old 01-04-2013, 03:05 PM   #1
Member
 
City: East Boston
Country: USA
Vessel Name: no name yet
Vessel Model: Willard 50 ft ex Navy utility
Join Date: Dec 2012
Posts: 12
COI for 50ft Willard

Has anyone taken an ex Navy Willard (33 ,40 or 50 footer)
and had it restored to its original look and function and then had it certified to carry passengers?
__________________
Advertisement

Tim Gover is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-04-2013, 04:03 PM   #2
Guru
 
Phil Fill's Avatar
 
City: Everett Wa
Country: US
Vessel Name: Eagle
Vessel Model: Roughwater 58 pilot house
Join Date: Oct 2007
Posts: 2,919
If you do a six pack the requirements are not too bad, but the boat still has to be inspected and pass. Also requires a Captain license which is no big deal as you can take a course the guarantees you to pass. However the experience required may be the kicker. I had the Eagle inspect which passed, took the course passed the written exam, but did not have the experience required, and being a confirmed dock queen probable would not. Since the Willards where built in the US the requirements for more than a six pack is less than foreign made boats, but as you move up in the number so due the requirements.

Before you spend too much time and money investigate the market/customer base. We were looking at the gay/lesbian community which is big in Seattle, charity/special cruises, and special charters/stuff off the boat. Every week in the summer there is some sort of boat rendezvous/show.

Also if you are going to spend a lot of money, you might want to take out a business license then you can open commercial/whole sale accounts. We bought the Eagle as a commercial charter, and took out a business license, so all the improvements where bought whole sale. I still have a commercial/wholesale account with Fisheries and West Marine. So even if you do not actually charter, which we never did its still might be worth it for the discounts.
__________________

Phil Fill is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-04-2013, 04:09 PM   #3
Guru
 
skipperdude's Avatar
 
City: Whittier AK
Country: USA
Vessel Name: Apache II
Vessel Model: 1974 Donald Jones
Join Date: Oct 2007
Posts: 3,147
I surveyed a Willard 1989 40 ft for a pre purchase survey. The boat was set up as original and used for scientific study of walrus on round island in Alaska.
I don't understand the question.
Is this something you are going to do?

I can't for see any issues with the cert.
Fine boats built like tanks.
The one I looked at was a captains launch.

Sd
__________________
If you can't repair it maybe it shouldn't be on the boat
skipperdude is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-04-2013, 04:36 PM   #4
Member
 
City: East Boston
Country: USA
Vessel Name: no name yet
Vessel Model: Willard 50 ft ex Navy utility
Join Date: Dec 2012
Posts: 12
Ex navy

Thank you,I am all set up and already in business with a 1944 USNavy YP .Capt license and all.I am trying to expand with this 50ft 1985 Navy launch. Seeing if anyone out there that may have done the same with their Willard and weather or not they faced any issues.Yes the boat is solid however the USCG will require all upto date wiring etc. or maybe the boat being so well built will pass all requirements as is.(that would be nice)
Tim Gover is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-04-2013, 05:22 PM   #5
Guru
 
skipperdude's Avatar
 
City: Whittier AK
Country: USA
Vessel Name: Apache II
Vessel Model: 1974 Donald Jones
Join Date: Oct 2007
Posts: 3,147
I would think you need to wory about the requirements for a certification.

I don't think the Willard will need more than the requirements for light and safty as nav lights and the proper number of life jackets and of course the Y valve. Fire extinguishers and the like.

As long as she is seaworthy and doesn't leak fluids into the water.
You should be good to go.

I have never applied for one so it is just a guess.

Good luck

SD
__________________
If you can't repair it maybe it shouldn't be on the boat
skipperdude is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-04-2013, 10:59 PM   #6
Guru
 
windmill29130's Avatar
 
City: Little River SC
Vessel Name: JAZ
Vessel Model: Ta Chaio/CT35
Join Date: Jan 2011
Posts: 716
There is a workaround if the boat is not certified. You can do a bareboat charter and they can hire you back as the captain.
windmill29130 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-05-2013, 06:47 AM   #7
Scraping Paint
 
City: Fort Lauderdale
Vessel Model: CHB 48 Zodiac YL 4.2
Join Date: Oct 2007
Posts: 3,804
Why guess about this sort of stuff?

46CFR115 and 116 might shine some light on the subject.
RickB is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-05-2013, 12:30 PM   #8
Guru
 
Phil Fill's Avatar
 
City: Everett Wa
Country: US
Vessel Name: Eagle
Vessel Model: Roughwater 58 pilot house
Join Date: Oct 2007
Posts: 2,919
Quote:
Originally Posted by RickB View Post
Why guess about this sort of stuff?

46CFR115 and 116 might shine some light on the subject.


What is that in reference to?
Phil Fill is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-05-2013, 12:50 PM   #9
Guru
 
Sailor of Fortune's Avatar
 
City: Saint Augustine, Fl.
Country: Port of St Augustine ,FL
Join Date: Sep 2009
Posts: 1,959
Passenger Boat Code of Federal Regulations
Sailor of Fortune is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-05-2013, 01:05 PM   #10
Guru
 
City: Hotel, CA
Country: Fried
Join Date: Sep 2011
Posts: 8,328
They are enforceable regulations. Not an alphabet soup of non-enforcable suggestions.
__________________
Craig

It's easier to fool people than to convince them that they've been fooled - Mark Twain
CPseudonym is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-05-2013, 03:43 PM   #11
Member
 
Sunshine Rick's Avatar
 
City: Anacortes, WA
Country: USA
Vessel Name: Sunshine
Vessel Model: Willard 30 Vega Nomad
Join Date: Jan 2008
Posts: 23
COI for existing US built, SubChapter T

Wow, Tim, you may be sorry you asked this question here -- there is some pretty bad advice above! As a licensed Master, I'm sure you understand more about the regs for Subchapter T small passenger vessels than most of those who weighed in.

Some clarifications:
  1. You cannot bareboat charter a boat and then hire yourself back as captain -- that used to be the case some years ago, but it is expressly prohibited now.
  2. Just because a boat is well built doesn't mean it will be no problem getting certified. You still have to a.) Prove it (with plans, tests, and calculations), and b.) meet the letter of all requirements, not just be good marine practice. (Are the handrails 39.5" high? No, they're only 39"? You have to raise them! Do you have 32" wide exit doors? Of course not -- better get the sawsall out!)
  3. The Subchapter T construction and arrangement regulations apply to all boats carrying more than 6 passengers for hire (or more than 12 if the boat is over 100 Gross Tons (domestic)). Generally the boat must be US built though, which means Willards are certainly eligible.
Bottom line is that you need to jump through quite a few hoops to get any boat certified -- new or used. The Coast Guard needs to confirm that the hull is built to a classification standard such as ABS or Lloyds Rules (doesn't have to be CLASSED, just built to a standard.) All mechanical, electrical, and plumbing systems need to meet either the Coast Guard regulations in Subchapter T, or if the passenger count and vessel length are smaller, ABYC standards. She needs to pass an intact stability standard, which usually requires physical testing (even if there are near sister vessels operating that have passed.) (A Damage Stability standard is not required if under 65 feet.) A collision bulkhead is required if operating on Exposed or Partially Protected waters. (It must be located between 5 and 15% of the waterline length aft of the stem, so even if you have one, it's gotta be in the right place.)

And all of the above needs to be documented to the satisfaction of the Coast Guard, which means accurate plans need to be drawn up and calculations submitted for approval. It can certainly be done, and is done all the time, but you need to be aware that it can take time and money to get that COI in your hands. Lots more to it than just being "seaworthy and not leaking fluids"!

My experience with the Coast Guard is that they are there to help you through the process, and they generally are very helpful in outlining the requirements and explaining the reasoning. However they do have a huge and varied mission, so there's definitely a limit to the amount of hand-holding they can do. So it's good to do a little homework before proceeding. The first step is to review the Regs (see the links below) and make a list of questions. Then contact your local Coast Guard Inspections office (OCMI, Officer in Charge Marine Inspection). They will assign an Inspector for the boat only if you can convince them you are serious -- i.e. you actually own the boat and are actively planning to make the necessary changes to put her into service. Then you can work closely with your inspector to work out what needs to be done and what documentation the Coast Guard will need. (My advice: don't try to fight them - it's worth developing a friendly, cooperative rapport with them.)

References:
-Rick Etsell, P.E., naval architect
Sunshine Rick is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-07-2013, 06:23 AM   #12
FF
Guru
 
FF's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2007
Posts: 16,525
There have been many utility boats that have recieved their coi.

The hull is fire retardant resin and has a collision bulkhead.

THe USN would run with 150 pax and 2 crew , most 50's will only be cert to about 40 due to the required inclining teat.

Sadly the USCG does not recognise the full flotation of the hull and allow more.

As this has been done dozens of times , a review of some of the existing certificates would get you on the right track.
FF is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-07-2013, 09:22 AM   #13
Guru
 
windmill29130's Avatar
 
City: Little River SC
Vessel Name: JAZ
Vessel Model: Ta Chaio/CT35
Join Date: Jan 2011
Posts: 716
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sunshine Rick View Post
Wow, Tim, you may be sorry you asked this question here -- there is some pretty bad advice above! As a licensed Master, I'm sure you understand more about the regs for Subchapter T small passenger vessels than most of those who weighed in.

Some clarifications:
  1. You cannot bareboat charter a boat and then hire yourself back as captain -- that used to be the case some years ago, but it is expressly prohibited now.
  2. Just because a boat is well built doesn't mean it will be no problem getting certified. You still have to a.) Prove it (with plans, tests, and calculations), and b.) meet the letter of all requirements, not just be good marine practice. (Are the handrails 39.5" high? No, they're only 39"? You have to raise them! Do you have 32" wide exit doors? Of course not -- better get the sawsall out!)
  3. The Subchapter T construction and arrangement regulations apply to all boats carrying more than 6 passengers for hire (or more than 12 if the boat is over 100 Gross Tons (domestic)). Generally the boat must be US built though, which means Willards are certainly eligible.
Bottom line is that you need to jump through quite a few hoops to get any boat certified -- new or used. The Coast Guard needs to confirm that the hull is built to a classification standard such as ABS or Lloyds Rules (doesn't have to be CLASSED, just built to a standard.) All mechanical, electrical, and plumbing systems need to meet either the Coast Guard regulations in Subchapter T, or if the passenger count and vessel length are smaller, ABYC standards. She needs to pass an intact stability standard, which usually requires physical testing (even if there are near sister vessels operating that have passed.) (A Damage Stability standard is not required if under 65 feet.) A collision bulkhead is required if operating on Exposed or Partially Protected waters. (It must be located between 5 and 15% of the waterline length aft of the stem, so even if you have one, it's gotta be in the right place.)

And all of the above needs to be documented to the satisfaction of the Coast Guard, which means accurate plans need to be drawn up and calculations submitted for approval. It can certainly be done, and is done all the time, but you need to be aware that it can take time and money to get that COI in your hands. Lots more to it than just being "seaworthy and not leaking fluids"!

My experience with the Coast Guard is that they are there to help you through the process, and they generally are very helpful in outlining the requirements and explaining the reasoning. However they do have a huge and varied mission, so there's definitely a limit to the amount of hand-holding they can do. So it's good to do a little homework before proceeding. The first step is to review the Regs (see the links below) and make a list of questions. Then contact your local Coast Guard Inspections office (OCMI, Officer in Charge Marine Inspection). They will assign an Inspector for the boat only if you can convince them you are serious -- i.e. you actually own the boat and are actively planning to make the necessary changes to put her into service. Then you can work closely with your inspector to work out what needs to be done and what documentation the Coast Guard will need. (My advice: don't try to fight them - it's worth developing a friendly, cooperative rapport with them.)

References:
-Rick Etsell, P.E., naval architect

When did they stop the bareboat/Hired Captain deal? I was unaware of that.

thanks
windmill29130 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-07-2013, 09:40 AM   #14
Scraping Paint
 
City: Fort Lauderdale
Vessel Model: CHB 48 Zodiac YL 4.2
Join Date: Oct 2007
Posts: 3,804
Quote:
Originally Posted by windmill29130 View Post
When did they stop the bareboat/Hired Captain deal?
They haven't.

The regulations are just more strict and better defined since there are or were so many people violating the rules through ignorance or by choice.

Again, don't rely on internet forums for that kind of information. Go to the source, learn to read the CFRs and ask the USCG for specific information regarding your own situation.

Just because your document is endorsed for coastwise trade doesn't make it or you a commercial operator or operation ... contrary to what at least one member here believes and promotes.
RickB is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-07-2013, 10:56 AM   #15
Guru
 
windmill29130's Avatar
 
City: Little River SC
Vessel Name: JAZ
Vessel Model: Ta Chaio/CT35
Join Date: Jan 2011
Posts: 716
Quote:
Originally Posted by RickB View Post
They haven't.

The regulations are just more strict and better defined since there are or were so many people violating the rules through ignorance or by choice.

Again, don't rely on internet forums for that kind of information. Go to the source, learn to read the CFRs and ask the USCG for specific information regarding your own situation.

Just because your document is endorsed for coastwise trade doesn't make it or you a commercial operator or operation ... contrary to what at least one member here believes and promotes.

thanks
windmill29130 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-07-2013, 12:20 PM   #16
Guru
 
Phil Fill's Avatar
 
City: Everett Wa
Country: US
Vessel Name: Eagle
Vessel Model: Roughwater 58 pilot house
Join Date: Oct 2007
Posts: 2,919
Quote:
Originally Posted by windmill29130 View Post
thanks
Even if you do not you might want to take out a business licence so you can open wholesale/commercial accounts. You need is a state business license which is a simple form and low fee.
Phil Fill is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-07-2013, 12:42 PM   #17
Guru
 
Nomad Willy's Avatar
 
City: Concrete Washington State
Country: USA
Vessel Name: Willy
Vessel Model: Willard Nomad 30'
Join Date: Oct 2007
Posts: 13,712
Sunshine Rick,

Glad to see you here as so few Willardites post on this forum.

There are two Willard 30s at Latitude Marine and several at the LaConner Marina where I will probably return about mid summer. Much to do after my 7 years in Alaska.
__________________
Eric

North Western Washington State USA
Nomad Willy is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-07-2013, 01:53 PM   #18
Guru
 
windmill29130's Avatar
 
City: Little River SC
Vessel Name: JAZ
Vessel Model: Ta Chaio/CT35
Join Date: Jan 2011
Posts: 716
<LI class="tall pdf1">Operator of Uninspected Passenger Vessel (OUPV) or “6-Pack” License – This license is most appropriate for un-inspected passenger vessels which by law are limited to six or less passengers for hire. These are usually smaller vessels and normally engage in charter fishing, whale watching, SCUBA diving, and tour cruises. This license is limited to near coastal waters only not more than 100 miles offshore and is not valid for international voyages.


Doesn't the title of this license say the boat does not have to be inspected as long as the passengers are six or less. Not sure what the original poster had in mind, but if he limits it to six he is ok. Right?
windmill29130 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-07-2013, 04:12 PM   #19
Scraping Paint
 
City: Fort Lauderdale
Vessel Model: CHB 48 Zodiac YL 4.2
Join Date: Oct 2007
Posts: 3,804
Quote:
Originally Posted by windmill29130 View Post
Not sure what the original poster had in mind ...

Uh, read the thread title, that pretty much narrows it down to a fine point.


If you are still confused, look up COI.
RickB is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-07-2013, 07:00 PM   #20
Guru
 
windmill29130's Avatar
 
City: Little River SC
Vessel Name: JAZ
Vessel Model: Ta Chaio/CT35
Join Date: Jan 2011
Posts: 716
Quote:
Originally Posted by RickB View Post
Uh, read the thread title, that pretty much narrows it down to a fine point.


If you are still confused, look up COI.
He never specified how many passengers!
__________________

windmill29130 is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off





All times are GMT -5. The time now is 11:20 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 4
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
Search Engine Optimization by vBSEO 3.6.0
Copyright 2006 - 2012