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Old 01-07-2013, 09:24 PM   #21
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I guess you didn't bother to look up "COI."

No point in going any further with this conversation.
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Old 01-07-2013, 09:37 PM   #22
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I guess you didn't bother to look up "COI."

No point in going any further with this conversation.

Yes I did JackAZZ! My point is that if he operates with six or less passengers he doesn't need one!

Coast Guard regulations require each vessel carrying more than six passengers to have a valid COI onboard. The COI is a document issued to owners and operators of vessels following a satisfactory safety inspection by a Coast Guard marine inspector. The COI documents the vessel’s compliance with established structural standards, stability, lifesaving, firefighting and navigation equipment, as well as conditions of operating and demonstrated crew competency procedures.
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Old 01-07-2013, 10:26 PM   #23
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Whether you think he needs one or not is quite irrelevant.

He started the thread, he titled it, he asked about getting a COI.

He didn't ask you if you thought he needed one.
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Old 01-07-2013, 10:45 PM   #24
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Whether you think he needs one or not is quite irrelevant.

He started the thread, he titled it, he asked about getting a COI.

He didn't ask you if you thought he needed one.

Read the entire thread. Is seems others brought up other information that created new discussion that I responded to as did others. I didn't know we couldn't respond without permission from the thread starter. You being a Guru, please forward me the rules of of discussion.
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Old 01-08-2013, 06:28 AM   #25
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"The COI documents the vessel’s compliance with established structural standards, stability, lifesaving, firefighting and navigation equipment, as well as conditions of operating and demonstrated crew competency procedures."

So when you go out in a 6 pack boat ALL of this is missing.

Talk about CAVIAT EMPTOR!!!

A paper boat with the usual number of std safety items could be used as a 6 pac.

And of course there is no need to demonstrate any boat handling , just redoing a published paper test makes one "EL Captain!".
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Old 01-08-2013, 06:52 AM   #26
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Read the entire thread. Is seems others brought up other information that created new discussion that I responded to as did others. I didn't know we couldn't respond without permission from the thread starter. You being a Guru, please forward me the rules of of discussion.
Here's the "rules" ... read the question, answer the question if you can or want to. Provide a source for further information if you have it. Ask a closely related question if you have one.

If you don't know what color oranges are don't change the subject to watermelons because you saw one in a grocery store once and know that people eat them too.

This thread went to "other information" because a member who thinks putting coastwise on his document makes him a commercial operator chimed in with a watermelon story. Your best contribution so far is "Read the entire thread."
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Old 01-08-2013, 11:07 AM   #27
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50

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Wow, Tim, you may be sorry you asked this question here -- there is some pretty bad advice above! As a licensed Master, I'm sure you understand more about the regs for Subchapter T small passenger vessels than most of those who weighed in.

Some clarifications:
  1. You cannot bareboat charter a boat and then hire yourself back as captain -- that used to be the case some years ago, but it is expressly prohibited now.
  2. Just because a boat is well built doesn't mean it will be no problem getting certified. You still have to a.) Prove it (with plans, tests, and calculations), and b.) meet the letter of all requirements, not just be good marine practice. (Are the handrails 39.5" high? No, they're only 39"? You have to raise them! Do you have 32" wide exit doors? Of course not -- better get the sawsall out!)
  3. The Subchapter T construction and arrangement regulations apply to all boats carrying more than 6 passengers for hire (or more than 12 if the boat is over 100 Gross Tons (domestic)). Generally the boat must be US built though, which means Willards are certainly eligible.
Bottom line is that you need to jump through quite a few hoops to get any boat certified -- new or used. The Coast Guard needs to confirm that the hull is built to a classification standard such as ABS or Lloyds Rules (doesn't have to be CLASSED, just built to a standard.) All mechanical, electrical, and plumbing systems need to meet either the Coast Guard regulations in Subchapter T, or if the passenger count and vessel length are smaller, ABYC standards. She needs to pass an intact stability standard, which usually requires physical testing (even if there are near sister vessels operating that have passed.) (A Damage Stability standard is not required if under 65 feet.) A collision bulkhead is required if operating on Exposed or Partially Protected waters. (It must be located between 5 and 15% of the waterline length aft of the stem, so even if you have one, it's gotta be in the right place.)

And all of the above needs to be documented to the satisfaction of the Coast Guard, which means accurate plans need to be drawn up and calculations submitted for approval. It can certainly be done, and is done all the time, but you need to be aware that it can take time and money to get that COI in your hands. Lots more to it than just being "seaworthy and not leaking fluids"!

My experience with the Coast Guard is that they are there to help you through the process, and they generally are very helpful in outlining the requirements and explaining the reasoning. However they do have a huge and varied mission, so there's definitely a limit to the amount of hand-holding they can do. So it's good to do a little homework before proceeding. The first step is to review the Regs (see the links below) and make a list of questions. Then contact your local Coast Guard Inspections office (OCMI, Officer in Charge Marine Inspection). They will assign an Inspector for the boat only if you can convince them you are serious -- i.e. you actually own the boat and are actively planning to make the necessary changes to put her into service. Then you can work closely with your inspector to work out what needs to be done and what documentation the Coast Guard will need. (My advice: don't try to fight them - it's worth developing a friendly, cooperative rapport with them.)

References:
-Rick Etsell, P.E., naval architect
Hi Rick, Good advice and I contacted the CG and set up a meeting .They were more than happy to meet with me on this project. The CG in Boston does have that Small vessel package,it's titled (I have a dream) ..Thanks all.
Tim
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Old 01-08-2013, 12:01 PM   #28
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1. The charterer must have the option of selecting the crew. Although a master or crew may
be furnished by the owner, full possession and control must be vested in the charterer.
This does not preclude the charterer from taking advice from the master and crew
regarding hazardous conditions such as, inclement weather, navigational obstructions,
etc.
2.The master and crew are paid by the charterer.
3.All food, fuel, and stores are provided by the charterer.
4.All port charges and pilotage fees, if any, are paid by the charterer.
5. Insurance is obtained by the charterer, at least to the extent of covering liability not
included in the owner’s insurance. A greater indication of full control in the charterer is
shown if all insurance is carried by the charterer (of course, the owner retains every right
to protect his or her interest in the vessel).
6.
The charterer may discharge, for cause, the master or any crew member without referral
to the owner.

7. The vessel is to be surveyed upon its delivery and return.

After reading this from CG regulations, I would say you cannot bareboat and get hired back as the Captain.
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Old 01-08-2013, 12:18 PM   #29
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Quote:
Originally Posted by windmill29130 View Post

After reading this from CG regulations, I would say you cannot bareboat and get hired back as the Captain.


After reading more deeply into USCG interpretations and actions, I see that I was mistaken and you are correct.

While there appears to be no specific regulation that prohibits the owner from serving as master, the CG interpretation and its enforcement history supports the practical fact that an owner who serves as master under a "bareboat" charter agreement will not succeed in a defence against the violation.
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Old 01-08-2013, 12:57 PM   #30
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After reading more deeply into USCG interpretations and actions, I see that I was mistaken and you are correct.

While there appears to be no specific regulation that prohibits the owner from serving as master, the CG interpretation and its enforcement history supports the practical fact that an owner who serves as master under a "bareboat" charter agreement will not succeed in a defence against the violation.
[/LEFT]

I'm not right, I originally thought the same thing because I was told that just recently at a marina. This is why I participate in this forum, is to learn, not by being told, but actually seeing things in writing. This forum provides me with resources to read and learn. I hope others will not take information without investigating on their own. Especially if they are pursing an endeaver such as chartering!
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Old 01-08-2013, 02:39 PM   #31
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But the topic here is regarding taking passengers for hire. To do that, the vessel must be Inspected if carrying more than 6, or more than 12 if over 100 GT. Even if it's a Bareboat Charter, it still needs to be Inspected if over those limits. I am currently a Master for an Uninspected yacht over 100 GT. We can take as many guests as I deem safe for an owners party (about 35 in our case.) But if we take a charter party out, we are limited to 12 total passengers. To take more for hire, we would have to be an Inspected vessel. Even if we were to Bareboat charter the vessel to someone who provided their own captain and crew, they would still be limited to a maximum of 12 passengers for hire.
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Old 01-09-2013, 07:03 AM   #32
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The real question is can a USN 50 ft probably a Utility boat get a COI.

The answer to that is YES , its been done for decades.
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Old 03-29-2013, 02:07 PM   #33
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OK next question.looking for an original canvas top for the Willard ex-USNavy
50 ft
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Old 07-16-2013, 10:12 AM   #34
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Referring to the use of Willard hulls for conversions, this 53' Willard hull showed up for sale in one of my classified papers. Here's the link:

1992 Willard 53FT Canal Cruiser (Refit in 2010!) for sale | Fort Lauderdale (33315), FL
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Old 07-16-2013, 11:04 AM   #35
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Very cool boat.
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Old 07-16-2013, 12:40 PM   #36
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That boat has been advertised in the Yellow sheets for the last 6-8 months or so. Looks like a nice Looper. I don't think it has a COI. I got the impression it is a private yacht.
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Old 08-15-2013, 06:57 AM   #37
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The main reason ex USN or other ex military boats are of interest for sub T , is they are constructed with FR resin.And have a collision bulkhead .

FR is Fire Retarding , and its requirement is why most production boats are never licensed to carry over 6 pax.

A bulkhead could be added to many production boats , but the resin is hard to change!
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Old 08-15-2013, 09:52 AM   #38
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The canal boat looks odd to me. It looks like it dosn't have enough freeboard. That would suggest it really is an extended 40'. And a boot stripe is just a boot stripe but there is a break in the stripe. Didn't say anything in the add about it though. It just looks too long and low.

Rick wrote;
"I guess you didn't bother to look up "COI."
I didn't either. Most of us don't have much interest in the legal aspects of chartering. I try to limit my use of acronyms to the really commonly known. Or write them out in the first part of a post. Too many acronyms are thrown around here as I believe it to be vogue now. What I'd like to have on TF is a stickey or whatever it takes to have an index of acronyms so they would be handy to look up. Better would be for people to use them only among those that are familiar w them.
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Old 08-15-2013, 11:00 AM   #39
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FR is Fire Retarding , and its requirement is why most production boats are never licensed to carry over 6 pax.
No, FF, that is not correct.

If the boat has overnight accomodations for more than 12 pax then it must be constructed of FR resin. If it carries 12 or less and not powered by gasoline, it can be constructed of standard resins but must have additional fire protection requirements.
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Old 08-21-2013, 07:02 AM   #40
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The ex USN Utilities I am familiar with are used as day head boats , see the Manatees , or similar.

Although the USN is happy to carry 150 white hats and a crew of 3 , most USCG boats get a ticket for 40 -45 pax due to the incline rules.

This is interesting since the boats have 100% flotation (like a Boston Whaler) which is not counted.
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