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Old 11-05-2013, 10:32 PM   #21
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Here's my take on it. Just personal experience to back it up.

Sometimes, with a fast following sea, the problem is not the rudder size, but the water flowing over the rudder in reverse. This can happen when idling at low revs and the current from aft is having more effect than the prop. Steering can then get confusing in these situations, so as others pointed out, a shot of throttle to correct direction is sometimes needed.. This issue can't really be corrected with a larger rudder. It may make it worse in some conditions.

A canoe stern seems to deal with trailing seas much better most boats, so luckily I don't have much problem. I look forward to surfing waves back to the marina.
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Old 11-05-2013, 11:09 PM   #22
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If anyone knows about rough sea conditions, it should be someone from the PEIs. My guess is Jamie expects his Pilot to handle like one of the all weather local vessels and it isn't. By all means bolt on some bigger rudder type stock, keeping in mind the rest of the rudder gear may become a weak link.

I doubt Mainship considered a pro like Jamie would test their Pilot in a PEI gale and enjoy it.
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Old 11-06-2013, 01:05 AM   #23
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I fully agree with Markpiece's last response. Anticipation is the word. I am surprised the discussion is not focused on "Seat of the Pants" sensation. It should be the motivator for handling following seas. Busy? yes, however, with sensation you are ahead of the wave action and early response "To and From" should be a natural flow. If one waits till the actual twist of the hull then makes a correcting action, the result will have the casual boat user very flustered. Even though "Busy", with awareness the challenge can be invigorating. Man against sea type of experience and a wonder to discuss at the next club gathering on sea stories. The girls will marvel at your being masterly at the wheel during duress.

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Old 11-06-2013, 08:56 PM   #24
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sunchaser View Post
If anyone knows about rough sea conditions, it should be someone from the PEIs. My guess is Jamie expects his Pilot to handle like one of the all weather local vessels and it isn't. By all means bolt on some bigger rudder type stock, keeping in mind the rest of the rudder gear may become a weak link.

I doubt Mainship considered a pro like Jamie would test their Pilot in a PEI gale and enjoy it.
we do get some wind here i dont no if pro describes me but i do respect the weather. You are correct i am worried about the engineering . That is why i was wondering if anybody has tried this.
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Old 11-06-2013, 10:04 PM   #25
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I built this rudder in 2012 and this last winter I changed the piston to give me 70 degree rudder angle to one side. If anyone has a boat that can support this rudder style it is nothing short of a miracle. Last week we took the boat out in 35 knot gale on Lake Erie waves 10 to 12ft we did not stay out long. The boat ran with the waves on the autopilot with ease. The rudder is very responsive and has a lot of power. The rudder rarely need more then 10 degrees of deflections to make the corrections. I believe in real world testing when I can have a safe exit plan. This rudder design continue to exceed my expectation.
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Old 11-06-2013, 11:23 PM   #26
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we do get some wind here...
Do you what! We cycled PEI for a week a while back, there seemed to be headwind from every direction. One day I was in bottom gear to keep moving, another day wind on the frame of a bike parked, front wheel in a rack, bent the wheel beyond repair.
Actually, we really enjoyed PEI,took home good memories, pretty harbors, good cycling, great food, and locals ever willing to refill a water bottle.
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Old 11-14-2013, 08:44 AM   #27
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Jamie

Bill (ColonyCove) installed an articulated rudder on his MS 400. Here is a link to the company that makes them for the Mainships, I'm not sure if they do one for the Pilot series:

Home Page

Also, not sure what effect if any it has for following seas improvement, most people that install these do it for low speed handling around the docks.

I'm pretty sure ColonyCove is on this site, maybe he will chime in and give you some advice.

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Old 11-14-2013, 01:00 PM   #28
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Thanks ronlord i will check it out.
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Old 05-12-2015, 10:11 AM   #29
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Hello, I have your same boat and you same problem i agree whit you, in that sea condition is very hard and quite dangerous... i find a photo on instagram of a Mainship 30 whit the rudder modify, i try to ask some information but without success...
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Old 05-12-2015, 10:58 AM   #30
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Wedge trailing edge

Brooksie has a good idea. On the west coast we have a rugged fishing boat built by Farallon. Hard chined 27' boat that gets used in the crabbing and Urchin fleet. These boats fish some really nasty weather out of Bodega Bay and points north. The owners of many of the boats have added wedges to the trailing edge of their rudders to improve maneuverability around their pots and to help control these boats in the afternoon following sea conditions they work in. As you have mentioned additional strain on the the rest of the system should be a concern. Adding increased rudder angle can and does bend rudder shafts on fast boats. If you add length to a rudder without balancing it with additional leading edge, the helm gets too heavy. The combined added rudder area increases the force on the rudder post immensely. The wedges seem to be a poor mans articulated rudder that doesn't add significant force to the rudder post. When I first saw this done I asked the owner how it worked, he chuckled and said if he told me he'd have to kill me.
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Old 05-12-2015, 11:25 AM   #31
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I prefer a following sea over any other direction when the swell is up. My rudder is slightly bigger than most similar sized boats and may help a bit, but the rounded stern certainly is an advantage.
I'm sure there is a limit to where I have good control, but the boat seems to really enjoy a good surf.
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Old 05-12-2015, 11:28 AM   #32
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We also prefer a following sea as well over any other.
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Old 05-12-2015, 11:29 AM   #33
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Quote:
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My 2006 mainship pilot is hard to handle in a trailing sea almost dangerous if the seas get to bad. Has anybidy considered adding a larger rudder.
jamie I say try it. Drill a couple of holes in your rudder and make up a couple of different sized plates w/ & w/o wedge. with matching holes. Try them out applying them w/ mask & snorkel in turn. That will get you headed in the right direction. If your steering feels "harder" that means your rudder has gained power. The harder steering can be delt with later w/ more balance and/or (depending on your system) a leverage change. A rudder that fits up close to the hull gains power by lessening water that spills over the top of it. A dam along the bottom increases this effect w/o actually enlarging the rudder much. How about a picture of your rudder? What material?
You could always swap for a canoe stern like the Island Seeker...
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Old 05-12-2015, 01:18 PM   #34
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Quote:
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jamie I say try it. Drill a couple of holes in your rudder and make up a couple of different sized plates w/ & w/o wedge. with matching holes. Try them out applying them w/ mask & snorkel in turn. That will get you headed in the right direction. If your steering feels "harder" that means your rudder has gained power. The harder steering can be delt with later w/ more balance and/or (depending on your system) a leverage change. A rudder that fits up close to the hull gains power by lessening water that spills over the top of it. A dam along the bottom increases this effect w/o actually enlarging the rudder much. How about a picture of your rudder? What material?
You could always swap for a canoe stern like the Island Seeker...
This is a link to a post on our blog of the temporary rudder extension that I made. It worked out so well that at the next haul out we had a permanent extension installed. The temporary one cost me about $90 to make and just clamped onto the rudder. I just used snorkel gear and an allen wrench to attach it. We left the temporary one in place for a year until we hauled out.

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Old 05-12-2015, 04:37 PM   #35
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Jamie mac,
I think you're more or less stuck. I got much better (great actually) rudder response by attaching the hyd cyl shaft to a hole closer to the rudder shaft thereby increasing the max rudder deflection from 35 degrees to 45 degrees each way. Had the desired affect on my FD boat but your Mainship is much too fast for that.

Adding wedges, articulating mechanisms or other mods that I'm familiar w will add considerable drag at higher speeds. That's why the rudders are so small. You could increase the rudder size by adding fore and aft extensions but the percentage of area fore and aft of the original rudder may be optimized for a certian speed. If the rudder is made bigger it will feed back forces not known w the smaller rudder. Basically you'll be going experimental.

There is one option that will probably work enough to make you happy. Power steering. And the bigger rudder. I would think optimizing the ballance would best be done w manual (mechanical or hydraulic) and then converting to power steering. Fast power steering w a big rudder would seem bullet proof to me but never seen such a system nor read of one indicating how it may work.

Wedges and most other add on trailing edge mods will increase steering power but they may need to be big to increase the power enough to make you smile. You may just get sore arms in a following sea or sore arms and a little better response.

Most people w faster boats just accept the way the boat was built and live w it. I went to hydraulic steering and less mechanical advantage to get the additional rudder deflection but my over sized hydraulic components give extra resistance because of the bigger rubber seals and the lower mechanical advantage. My steering is a bit heavy but tolerable. I use all of my rudder swing in big following seas and for manerverability in tight quarters. It was a good trade for me but a faster boat like yours has fewer options.
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Old 05-12-2015, 04:53 PM   #36
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"Most people w faster boats just accept the way the boat was built and live w it."

I do that crossing the Strait of Jaun de Fuca when possible, setting my speed to match the speed of the swell. It doesn't always work so I have the same woes as others. (Haro Strait is another matter--everyone has their work cut out for them there in an ebb against a SW wind.)
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