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Old 04-27-2012, 07:56 PM   #81
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I own a single screw and work on a single screw. My last liveaboard was a twin. I know/drive a lot of twin AND single boats that prove both manueverability claims to be bunk....and I drive a lot of boats that prove both true. Anyone really experienced with lot's of examples of both know the real answer...
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Old 04-27-2012, 08:07 PM   #82
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I've never understood this general attitude either. I've seen people on this and other forums act like using a thruster to maneuver in close quarters as being akin to cheating on their wife.
Me either. My feeling is that a bow thruster lets you do things you can't do in either a single or a twin. The times I can remember seeing Carey use his bow thruster have all been to do something that neither he in his single or I in my twin could not have done.

You cannot move the bow sideways and leave the stern exactly where it is with either one or two engines with conventional drives. Opposite thrust with a twin doesn't move the bow around, it moves the stern around. The only reason it pivots insted of moving forward in a turn is because of that prop in reverse. But the pivot is the stern walking around, not the bow walking around.

So when Carey has used his thruster it was to get the bow away from a dock without driving his stern into it and breaking something, which is what would happen if he used thrust and rudder instead, or if I used opposing thrust at the dock in our twin engine boat. He has also used his thruster to keep his bow from being moved off a dock by wind or current while they got the spring and stern secured. Again, he's accomplishing something that can't be done in a single or twin without a thruster.

We have a twin and we're pretty good at maneuvering it, but there have been times when a bow thruster would have been real handy to have. We're not going to pay to put one in our boat, but if it had one that would be cool, and we'd use it.

It's a great tool because it lets you do some things you can't do without one regardless of how many engines you have.

Now I have seen boaters come into our marina and even as they're turning into the breakwater entrance at an idle speed of four knots or so they're using their thruster to move the bow like they use the steering wheel of a car to aim the front end. And they do this all the way through the marina to their slip. They never use the rudder at all judging by the way the boat moves. I don't think that's very smart because by not learning to steer with the rudder in these situations they are setting themselves up for some real and potentially very expensive problems should that thruster ever crap out.
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Old 04-27-2012, 08:23 PM   #83
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Marin

At first, I just thought you were a horses ass, now I am convinced.
You are too wrapped up in your own greatness.
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Old 04-27-2012, 08:28 PM   #84
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I know/drive a lot of twin AND single boats that prove both manueverability claims to be bunk....and I drive a lot of boats that prove both true. Anyone really experienced with lot's of examples of both know the real answer...
That sums it up as well as anything. I think there are just too many variables in boating (or flying or driving or..... ) to make blanket statements like "twins are always easier to maneuver than singles."

There are undoubtedly single-engine boats out there that are an absolute bitch to handle and there are undoubtedly twins out there that are an equally absolute bitch to handle. To assume that every boat conforms to some specific characteristic is, I think, a very naive assumption.
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Old 04-27-2012, 08:34 PM   #85
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Marin

At first, I just thought you were a horses ass, now I am convinced.
You are too wrapped up in your own greatness.
If you're gonna make big blanket assumtions about stuff you'd better be prepared to be pelted with reasons why your big blanket assumption has a whole lot of holes in it.

What you happen to think of me doesn't change the fact that your big, blanket assumption about twins vs singles has a whole lot of holes in it.

Read Mr. Psneeld's post a few before this one and then get back to us when you have the same amount of experience in twins and singles that he does. Then your statements about twins and singles will have a wee bit more credibility.
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Old 04-27-2012, 11:06 PM   #86
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Jane dangled the bait and you all fell for it. I know it wasn't a long winter. Maybe everyone's 401k is doing bad? Just because there is an easy shot, it doesn't mean you have to take it. Jane you doing fine. Everyone else, there is a search function..... Single vs. Twins. Age old question. To make it simple. I do a lot of Northern Gulf of Mexico fishing in a center console. I been in twins, trippples and quads. I would never go 100 miles offshore in a center console boat without at least twins. It doesn't matter about the rest of the "logic". Your motor goes out you might die. End of story.
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Old 04-27-2012, 11:11 PM   #87
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So, what I am walking away with from this arguement is "Which is better for what reason" If this is the case, one should not have to justify their personal reasons for wanting one over the other.
Which is better from an efficiency point of view? A Single
Which is better from an initial cost and maintenance cost point of view? A single
Which is better from a protected prop point of view? A single
Which is better from a "I feel more secure" point of veiw? Twins.
Which is better from an easier to maneuver in tight areas point of view? Twins
Which is better because "I just like them" point of view? Both

Since I am trying to sell my sailboat and buy a trawler, this info is very useful to me.
Probably the most useful I have found on here so far.

Please correct me where I am wrong on the above and also keep the discussuions going. Each argument appears to be valid depending on your perspective.
Sometimes, "Which is better" gets confused with "Which I prefer" arguments.
For the unititiated, like myself, I see many trying to justy their personal preference by saying it is better rather than I like it better for the following reasons. This happens in sailing forums, woodworking forums and just about every forum.
Tony, my lugger has two keels and two rudders. Both props are equally protected.
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Old 04-28-2012, 05:08 AM   #88
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Tony, my lugger has two keels and two rudders. Both props are equally protected.
That is a relatively uncommon configuration, but they do exist. Biloxi Luggers like yours were also referred to as "Chandeleur Boats" as I am sure you are aware of. My best guess is that the two keels were for both intentional and unintentional landings on the Chandeleur Islands. BTW, how is your restoration coming along?

BTW, where are u keeping your boat at?
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Old 04-28-2012, 06:38 AM   #89
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Jane dangled the bait and you all fell for it. I know it wasn't a long winter. Maybe everyone's 401k is doing bad? Just because there is an easy shot, it doesn't mean you have to take it. Jane you doing fine. Everyone else, there is a search function..... Single vs. Twins. Age old question. To make it simple. I do a lot of Northern Gulf of Mexico fishing in a center console. I been in twins, trippples and quads. I would never go 100 miles offshore in a center console boat without at least twins. It doesn't matter about the rest of the "logic". Your motor goes out you might die. End of story.
Single outboard 100 miles out in the nice warm Gulf? Big deal...done all the time up here off the coast of Jersey in the Nort Alantic....just carry an EPIRB.

There are so many potential rescuers in both places...it wouldn't bother me a bit...
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Old 04-28-2012, 09:15 PM   #90
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Tony, the boat is in Biloxi Ms. I am taking monday and tuesday off to put in my last two fuel tanks. I got them back from the welding shop about a month ago. I've got both genset running and one of the 6-71's running a couple of weeks ago. When I get the fuel tanks set I can plumb the fuel lines and get a drop. I've been skiddish about running anything on jerry cans because I ran out of fuel on one of the generators. Plan is to set the tanks and get the other 6-71 running. Than I can be mobil for the hurricane season.
Psneeld, I don't want to put my life in the hands of "potential rescuers". Coast Guard would be the last resort. I've had engine problems and your not going to get help from the oil field. You would have to contact the CG and have them call someone that can come get you. The CG doesn't bother unless it's life or death emergency. I don't know what type of boat tow service you have but here their boats wouldn't be able to budge my lugger. CC yes but I don't like to wait.
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Old 04-28-2012, 09:18 PM   #91
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Tony, the boat is in Biloxi Ms. I am taking monday and tuesday off to put in my last two fuel tanks. I got them back from the welding shop about a month ago. I've got both genset running and one of the 6-71's running a couple of weeks ago. When I get the fuel tanks set I can plumb the fuel lines and get a drop. I've been skiddish about running anything on jerry cans because I ran out of fuel on one of the generators. Plan is to set the tanks and get the other 6-71 running. Than I can be mobil for the hurricane season.
Psneeld, I don't want to put my life in the hands of "potential rescuers". Coast Guard would be the last resort. I've had engine problems and your not going to get help from the oil field. You would have to contact the CG and have them call someone that can come get you. The CG doesn't bother unless it's life or death emergency. I don't know what type of boat tow service you have but here their boats wouldn't be able to budge my lugger. CC yes but I don't like to wait.
I tow boats/barges a lot bigger than your lugger all the time. from 100 miles out we would use our 46 foot crew boat...no sweat.
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Old 04-28-2012, 09:29 PM   #92
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I tow boats/barges a lot bigger than your lugger all the time. from 100 miles out we would use our 46 foot crew boat...no sweat.
You guys deal with the big boys up there. The Boat us and Tow boat companies here don't have the investment. Now I could call an oil field tow boat but they don't have the membership deal like the Boat US or Sea Tow. I don't know what it would cost but I sure wouldn't want to pay it. It's all comfort. When I had a center console single engine I would go out as far as I felt comfortable (usually no more than 15 or 20 miles). With twins, which are on my hs vector I go out over 100 miles. Lugger with twins 6-71, I couldn't tell you because it hasn't left the dock since I bought it.
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Old 04-28-2012, 09:40 PM   #93
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You guys deal with the big boys up there. The Boat us and Tow boat companies here don't have the investment. Now I could call an oil field tow boat but they don't have the membership deal like the Boat US or Sea Tow. I don't know what it would cost but I sure wouldn't want to pay it. It's all comfort. When I had a center console single engine I would go out as far as I felt comfortable (usually no more than 15 or 20 miles). With twins, which are on my hs vector I go out over 100 miles. Lugger with twins 6-71, I couldn't tell you because it hasn't left the dock since I bought it.
Sea Tow pays up to $5000 or Boat US up to $3000 for someone to tow you in under their membership if they can't/won't..for 100 mile tow I'm sure someone would.

And as far as what you're comfortable with.. 15-20 miles.....doesn't mean taking a single farther is unsafe or a problem for others.
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Old 04-28-2012, 10:16 PM   #94
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Sea Tow pays up to $5000 or Boat US up to $3000 for someone to tow you in under their membership if they can't/won't..for 100 mile tow I'm sure someone would.

And as far as what you're comfortable with.. 15-20 miles.....doesn't mean taking a single farther is unsafe or a problem for others.
Well I guess you got it all figured out.
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Old 04-28-2012, 10:17 PM   #95
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Well I guess you got it all figured out.
Not all the time...but around the water...hmmmmm
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Old 04-28-2012, 11:51 PM   #96
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For those of us who travel where tides and currents are high, tow rescue does not exist and cell phones are out of range, twins are nice to have. So are line cutters. Many proven/popular blue water trawlers today like Nordhavn, Northern Marine and Selene all are equipped with some type of get home engines. Krogens not so much until you get into the 52/58 sizes where twins are used. Dashew's website has a good series of articles on how his FPB 64s are now equipped with get homes that will propel the vessel at 8 knots.

On a side note, without electronic engines, Tier III engines are not possible hence no new trawlers could be built.
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Old 04-29-2012, 12:21 AM   #97
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On a side note, without electronic engines, Tier III engines are not possible hence no new trawlers could be built.
Thats my argument for my old Lehman 135's. Boat designs may be driven by marketing- but engine designs are driven by GOVERNMENT MANDATES!! The only way around this is to keep these old cast iron dinosaurs in our engine rooms running
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Old 04-29-2012, 07:16 AM   #98
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single or double engine

I hear you, but I just don't trust the electronic computer controls on my boat.
I'm just waiting for it to fail me. probably in the worst place.

I studied my boat and when it does fail me I know how to short the computer electrical interlock, disconnect the throttle and shifting gear linkage. So I'll get the boat home.

Sorry, I like the old day fully mechanical diesel engines
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Old 04-29-2012, 08:07 AM   #99
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I hear you, but I just don't trust the electronic computer controls on my boat.
I'm just waiting for it to fail me. probably in the worst place.

I studied my boat and when it does fail me I know how to short the computer electrical interlock, disconnect the throttle and shifting gear linkage. So I'll get the boat home.

Sorry, I like the old day fully mechanical diesel engines
Careful Jann comments like your last one will land you in the same sandbox I did a few pages back.

You may have figured out how to shift and throttle your engine but when we are talking about electronic engine management (atleast in this thread) its about engines whose actual running is controlled by computers, (injectors and timing not just throttle and shifting) but it is a wise thing to learn how to get around the fly-by-wire controls provided they are what craps out and not the engine's computer. Although I have been on one Carolina Classic that had electronic controls on mechanical Yanmars.
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Old 04-29-2012, 08:13 AM   #100
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Always been an advocate of single engine boats, unless you have a LOT of extra money. A well maintained single engine boat will be far more economical than twins. THink about it - every oil change is double the cost with twins, two of everything to repair/replace, etc. Fuel consumption is higher, though its not twice, but it is higher.
There is a benefit in docking manueaverability but if you learn to run a boat properly, many of us do it well in a single.
Consider this -
With twin engine you have doubled your probability of having to deal with an engine maintenance or repair. It will double your chances of not being able to leave for a voyage because one of the engines needs help. You will never leave if one of these has a problem.
R,
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