MS 34 Trawler broaching

[BandB]

I have an excellent autopilot but I don't use it in big following seas...and I don't think that's unusual. I DO use my bow thruster though when rudder alone is too little/too slow. I also find being full fuel and water makes a big positive difference in following-sea conditions. Were you light ship?

Wifey B: Practice tuning your autopilot to different settings and you might find it works very well in following seas. You just can't leave it at the settings you'd use in other conditions. The same sensitivity you use normally would have it doing headstands (ok, not literally, but over adjusting by large amounts) in following seas.

 

[Aquabelle]

Wifey B: Practice tuning your autopilot to different settings and you might find it works very well in following seas. You just can't leave it at the settings you'd use in other conditions. The same sensitivity you use normally would have it doing headstands (ok, not literally, but over adjusting by large amounts) in following seas.

No problem with a/pilot in most following-sea conditions and you are right to note the need to adjust settings. But in more extreme conditions....which will vary by boat and skipper....I think most will reach a point where hand steering is more appropriate.

 

[Seevee]

No problem with a/pilot in most following-sea conditions and you are right to note the need to adjust settings. But in more extreme conditions....which will vary by boat and skipper....I think most will reach a point where hand steering is more appropriate.

Good point, but when it's too rough to use the AP, I really don't need to be there. That's a BIG workout... constantly turning and rolling.



Overall, the Mainship has SO many advantages over the other double ended and vessels mentioned for following seas, that I'll just live with it. It's a great coastal cruiser... not a blue water boat. And it does very well for what it's designed to do.

 

[Nomad Willy]

Good thing you like it SeeVee as there’s very few double enders available. Most people like you prefer the greater space aboard and usual wider beam of a square stern boat. Only kinda sorta solution is a significantly bigger rudder and “higher” speeds will take a hit. Most of us are happy w what we have.

 

[J105]

Dave...I have an '08 34T single engine and been doing the snowbird thing each year from CT to FL. Been caught in some big seas unintentionally (Jersey Coast, Martha's Vineyard, Gulf Steam back from Bahamas)...here's what we've learned to address this issue:
- I have the Garmin AP ('10 vintage)...it does well up to a point...after first trip south added Bennet drop fins to the trim tabs...I cannot tell if they help the trim tabs but I found that the window in which the AP could steer increased...I assume the stern is so flat that any fin helps with the tracking.
- I immediately move off the flybridge in a building following sea and drive from lower helm...makes a huge difference
- Trim the bow way up...all the way actually.
- Tack....any angle other than square astern is a huge help
- Slow down...we normally cruise at 2,700 rpm 9kts...I slow to make sure I'm out of sequence with the following seas...there was a great video several years ago posted on this site about broaching...and it showed in a test tank how to help avoid broaching.

lastly we're very conservative in picking weather windows...the handful of times I've been caught, thankfully have been while in the delivery mode and not with admiral, dogs, etc.

 

[DavidM]

One possible solution that hasn't been discussed yet is an articulating rudder. I have a friend who has a Mainship 40 and swears by it. The articulating rudder acts like an air foil and even though it probably doesn't have that much more area than the OEM rudder it provides much more force when turned over hard.


He mostly uses it for low speed docking maneuvers where the small OEM rudder struggles. How it would work in a following sea is a real question. And how good the mechanics will hold up with hard use is another question.


Anyone use one in a heavy following sea?


David

 

[RT Firefly]

Greetings,
I had an experience about 25 years ago with our first "trawler", 34' Marine Trader DC. We were bringing her home from Mystic CT. and going toward NYC on Long Island Sound. 2nd day of ever being on such a vessel found us on the sound with a Nor'easter approaching and a following sea of 3' to 4'. Novice at this point. Slightly less now.

She was all over the place on auto pilot so hand steering was necessary. Not quite as bad because I was able to anticipate the broach and also tack a bit to mitigate the pushing effect.

I did attempt to increase speed and ride in the trough but I just couldn't achieve more than 7 knots. I feel that if I was able to run faster, it would have been much more manageable.

We eventually holed up in Bridgeport CT for 3 days waiting the weather out. NOT a tourist destination in those days IMO. Last time I was on the ferry, I noticed that marina is gone now.

 

[Seevee]

Good thing you like it SeeVee as there’s very few double enders available. Most people like you prefer the greater space aboard and usual wider beam of a square stern boat. Only kinda sorta solution is a significantly bigger rudder and “higher” speeds will take a hit. Most of us are happy w what we have.

Willy,


Good point. Different boats for different strokes. If blue water was more of a requirement for me, I'd rethink my boat choice. For the few times I have to deal with nasty following seas, I'll either wait it out or tough it out. Prefer the wait.

 

[Ric]

I worked on a fishing boat that when the skipper was worried about a broach running an inlet, he'd slow down and throw a sturdy 5-gallon bucket on a line off of each corner of the transom. It was akin to a drogue but with two separate lines of force there was less sashaying than with a bridle. We always made it home.

 

[live2fish]

We are a 2008 Mainship 34 owner and like Seevee says its the design of the boat -- not a deep keel and a big beam relative to length. You may want to recalibrate your auto pilot to make sure it is at peak performance. If you do that make sure your speed is at least 10 mph or as the Raymarine tech told me, "the faster, the better". Sounds like you got caught in surprise weather. We avoid a following sea trip with anything above three feet but if we get caught in that situation we let the auto pilot do the work and just find the best speed and hope for a short trip. Tacking also helps.

 

[Pathfinder]

Also use your throttle

We've been caught out in similar conditions in our MS400.

Don't use any trimtab- just makes it worse.

Use your throttle to help the autopilot giving more power to help the autopilot correct the course then slowing for the next wave. No fun but it'll get you to shelter to drop anchor and wait for calmer seas.

 

[N4061]

Following Seas

It appears most recommendations that make sense have been posted so I will not add on but rather provide the following experience. We owned two Nordhavn 40' with active fin stabilizers (Trac and Wesmar) and while this model boat was designed for and traveled across oceans (not us) I never liked the way she handled following seas. As others mentioned a wide flat stern design had its tradeoffs. All this being said our current boat (Helmsman 38E) which is a modified full displacement boat at half the price of the N40 actually performs better in most conditions including following seas. Not sure it is as good as the KK wine glass design but definitely a nice hull design and one of the reasons we built it. It's long deep keel and large rudder with soft chines come together nicely. Just my two cents.

John T.

 

[stubones99]

zboater's first post...

Sea anchors are an off the bow open ocean storm tactic. A drogue is an off the stern open ocean storm tactic.

While I've never used one, Seabrake from Australia seems to fit the OP's scenario: https://www.burkemarine.com.au/pages/seabrake

Zboater's comment is what I would vote for. The problem with a broaching situation is when the boat wants to slide forward off the front of a wave, hitting the trough and plowing in which causes the stern to swing around.

A stern mounted drogue or sea anchor with a bridle off two cleats on the stern will slow the boat's forward speed a bit but will be like putting on brakes going down the front of the wave. Tying it off both sides of the boat keep it going straight down the wave, and prevents the sharp turn at the bottom of the wave trough.

Some sea anchors are a canvas cone-shaped thing with rope sewn around the big end. You could go for a Jordan series drogue where you have a bunch of cones on a long line off the stern

A gale rider drogue is a strap based cone-shaped drogue that provides drag but tracks straight in storms.

https://www.landfallnavigation.com/galerider.html
https://www.seaanchor.com/sea-anchor/
PARA-ANCHOR by Fiorentino - The Original "Parachute Style" Sea Anchor

 

[Tugalert]

Turn off your auto steering and learn to steer by hand in a following SEA. You will get used to the following rythem of the sea. Work with the sea rather then fighting it. Steering a large CG 327 cutter, large Ocean tugs, or my own boat it is all the same. If the wife complained about the vessel rolling then leave her home next time. ....ok, forget the last suggestion....

 

[vtmackey]

I have MS34 HT, dual engines, dual rudders. Crossed the Mona Passage in 10+ following seas on auto helm. Boat had no problems, not so the crew. Boat far exceeded expectaions. This was a 21 hour run and weather changed in last five hours. So the hulls great and more rudder may help. Joe

 

[Brooksie]

I have the same problem. I hand steer in those conditions. 6 turns lock to lock. I'd like to get that down to 3.

I find working the throttle helps a lot in those conditions. When it comes around a little too far, I throw some rpms at it until it starts to come back again, then I back down to my cruising rpm.

An Edson steering ball helps too.

If you 1/2 your turns, you will double steering effort... You can often add more balance to your rudder to reduce steering effort back to normal. 20% balance is considered about max.

 

[CCT]

Our single eng. Marine Trader 34 is bad in those conditions as well. Always have to take over from Auto helm and when there is room ie not in a narrow channel I quarter the waves and tack (zig zag).

But one strange thing I have found is when our two 150 gal water tanks are full and the stern is down I can increase throttle and the boat plows through with a lot less motion making it much more comfortable. Found this out by chance so we now try to keep the tanks full before heading out. (Tanks are in the stern)

Rod

 

[High Wire]

Coming north in the Alligator River a few weeks ago we wound up in above forecast winds. Supposed to be S 10-15 with gusts to 20 turned into S 20-25 with gusts to 32 as reported by the swing bridge tender. 3-4 footers on the stern were the limit of my old school non-gyro AP. Occasionally a big wave would catch us and push the stern off to the side for some thrills. The solution was to turn the AP off. Humans can anticipate sea forces, and start turning the wheel in the needed direction BEFORE the boat is pushed. APs cannot anticipate, only react. Much easier to keep my boat straight in moderate seas steering by hand. All the while saying if it gets worse, we bail for safe harbor bow first. Even if that means back-tracking.

 

[Arc]

https://youtu.be/GWxPnWZg8DA
I don’t have AP and my big rudder takes 6 turns. So I designed a Jog steering system. My boat is also a bit lively downwind. The jog steering make it very easy to anticipate and correct for the push. It also allows my to sit back and not get worn out on long legs

 

[Tugalert]

.......You did the right thing to covert to lever steering. Every commercial tug except one I ran going back to the late 1970 s had lever steering . That one tug went from wheel to level steering. Once again you were right.

 

[hmason]

The one thing I have not seen suggested and I have not read every post so forgive me if I missed it is to turn around (quickly between sets of waves) and angle the bow into the seas. Relax and let the weather pass or head for a new port. Better to be late than never.

 

[Tugalert]

Convert.....

 

[sharkiswake]

broaching

Try an articulated rudder they make all the difference in the world to steering down wind and reduces your turning circle .

 

[Peter B]

Wasn't really looking for guidance of when to take my boat out, I was rather looking for people's suggestings for easier control if/when caught in that circumstance. I'm still waiting for the weather crystal ball I ordered, as the conditions on Tampa Bay that day were not forecast. ;-)

David, before you get drastic and try to change boats, take heart, there is one trick I don't think anyone has mentioned yet, and I know it works because I had a similar vessel for 16 years, and she loved following seas. I have seen us surfing at over 11 knots down waves over 7 ft high, and with finger light hold on the wheel and no violent use thereof needed, because of no tendency to broach. Yet a similar vessel in terms of length, hull shape, rudder, etc, I believe.

What was the secret..? Well, the short answer is try to move as much weight as possible aft. It helps a lot..! However, having just now re-read you OP and realised you have a Mainship, this advice still may work, as even though mine was a CHB, it was like the Mainships, a sedan, which might make weight transfer easier anyway with the bigger lazaret..?

The reason as to how this was discovered is a longer story, but might be of some interest to others. You could say a serendipitous outcome from something that to most would not be good. Because of the notoriously common issue with these types of vessel back in the days when they screwed down teak decking, drips rusted through the tops of the fuel tanks. Most owners then end up with expensive fuel tank replacement. The previous owner of mine solved it in a simpler way. His funds were limited, so, as the fuel tanks were way bigger than necessary, and too high in the hull really anyway, he emptied them, blanked them off, and converted the stainless steel water tanks in the lazaret to fuel tanks. Later I dispensed with his bladder water tank solution and added in two T-linked 200L food grade plastic water tanks - also in the lazaret. Getting the picture..? Moving a fair chunk of weight aft meant her balance in a following sea was such as to convert a broacher to a surfer in terms of weight distribution. CCT's post #47 above hints at same solution, discovered by having full stern water tanks.

I'm not suggesting you do the same thing, but some lateral thinking might allow for a decent weight distribution to help achieve the same thing. What the weight is made up of is irrelevant. Maybe move the battery bank, and add in some more. Maybe just add in some extra water capacity in the way I did..? Maybe both..? Whatever weight you can move from for'd to aft will help. Just a thought.

 

[clyde]

hmmm, my normal starting comment, our old clunker, is a 40' skookum round bottom, single engine, flat stern, etc...we have gotten into 10/12 foot swells on our stern, an auto pilot must be really de tuned! we never use the auto pilot in conditions like that, it does`nt understand following seas! i just steer! the problem most have with the following sea, is correcting too late! i`ve been doing it for years, and usually do it automatically, with the feel of the boat motion!! like flying an airplane with the seat of your pants! also could be that i`ve pretty much done it all my life, but it`s easy to teach/learn with a little patience! like i said, over correcting, or late correcting is what every one does wrong...we had a westsail 32 double ender for 9 yrs, with a big ourboard rudder, piece of cake!...clyde [2 and 4 ft swells!!]

 

[Arc]

Try an articulated rudder they make all the difference in the world to steering down wind and reduces your turning circle .

That’s a big investment.

 

[Benthic2]

As the roll of the boat increases, the effectiveness of the rudder decreases due to its angle. If your rudder is only marginal when its straight up and down, it will definitely not be sufficient when you get a good lean on. Making corrections earlier, before the lean starts may help.

 

[Nomad Willy]

Aft in the lazerete I replaced my concrete w steel punchings ballast w various sizes and shapes of lead. It’s not solid lead but still (I’m sure) is considerably more weight than before.
A month or two I was talking about it on TF and decided to remove some of the lead thinking I would come much closer to proper trim and balance.

But now after reading CCT and PeterB’s posts perhaps I should leave well enough alone. The boat (Willy) is very well mannered in following seas does not lack control. She has hydraulic steering w a 3 turn L to L steering and a very big rudder. All together she’s an excellent package for following seas.

Here's Willy's rudder.

 

[syjos]

Your autopilot pump may not be big enough for the displacement of your steering cylinders which could lead to slow reaction time of the steering. Autopilot manuals usually have instruction for timing the rudder sweep and some have a way to adjust the speed by turning it on and off rapidly. But if the speed is already at max, it may be time for a bigger pump.

We were unhappy with Sandpipers downwind performance after purchase. It is FD, single, narrow transom with a large wing shaped rudder. It tended to go too far from one side to the other downwind.

I replaced the autopilot, installed a larger adjustable displacement pump and replaced the 1/2" tubing with 5/16" tubing on the advice from a Robertson Autopilot tech. (When they were in Lynnwood, WA before being purchased by Simrad.) The pumps displacement was adjusted per recommendation for the correct lock to lock speed. The old pump was too slow for the two push pull cylinders moving the rudder.

The improvement was significant. The boat steers straight downwind and also off the corners without the waves pushing the stern.

 

[rgano]

While I have seen drogues mentioned here, most of us smaller vessels don't carry such devices. I am amazed that NOBODY has mentioned the idea of towing "warps" from either quarter. This is just a length of rope with nothing attached, and we ALL have it board. If you don't think a length of rope towed astern does not have a lot of pull, just try to pull in by hand a 50-foot length of 5/8 inch rope while going at about 5 knots or so. I certainly agree with trying to tune the AP up to deal with following seas, but sometimes and for numerous reasons, it just is not doable that day. However, some mooring lines or spare anchor rode tied together and cleated off on both sides of the stern can result in some serious drag on the stern as winds and waves try to shove it around.