Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
 
Old 06-10-2014, 09:33 AM   #21
Member
 
wi4x4man's Avatar
 
City: Saxon Harbor, WI
Country: USA
Vessel Name: Iron Horse
Vessel Model: 1981 Mainship 34II
Join Date: May 2014
Posts: 10
The ultimate kicker with copper is mainly with ULSD and Biodiesel, which with ULSD we will not be able to get away from because this government keeps putting stricter and stricter laws on emissions. The same can be said about biodiesel... At some point, the government will subsidize it just like they have been doing with corn based ethanol. Even still, if you are using LSD or straight #2 things become worse when temperatures go up. For instance, according to the Copper Development Association, Publication No. 106, diesel fuel can work with copper at temperatures of around 70F and down. Normally this is fine for supply lines. However, as temperatures increase, the reactivity of the copper becomes "worse". So on your return lines where you do see higher temperatures (due to the heat of the engine, returning fuel from the injectors, temp increase in the injection pump, & etc.) your fuel return temps can and will approach temperatures unsuitable for copper and diesel. While this is mostly taken care of through cooling within the fuel tank(s), as your fuel supply drops and if you have been running for a long period of time, the fuel in the tank(s) will increase in temperature unless you have a fuel cooler. When that happens, your fuel tanks are now dispensing hot diesel fuel back to the engine, so your supply lines are then susceptible.

In addition to this, there is always flexing in a boat which is why it is a no-no to use PVC piping. Copper work-hardens as it is flexed, and eventually it becomes brittle.

As for stainless, yes it too can have issues, especially when high concentrations of chlorine are present. Stainless steel, much like aluminum, uses an oxidized layer to protect it. Chlorine can strip that layer, revealing unprotected material below it, which then oxidizes, is removed by chlorine, and etc. Before you know it, the material is completely gone and you start having pin-hole leaks.

My biggest concern is that things are very hard to get to. If I go through the effort to put in tanks that were originally taken out because of corrosion, then I might as well take care of the fuel lines because they will be the next to go. I could of course put in hoses, but then I am looking at replacing them at some point because the hose only has so long of a life. When I replaced my scupper hoses a few years ago, the deterioration of the hose was nothing short of astonishing. When wire reinforced hose rips in half when you pull on it, and when you can stick your fingers through the hose, that is pretty bad. These are only drains too handling water, not fuel.
__________________
Advertisement

wi4x4man is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-10-2014, 10:19 AM   #22
Guru
 
City: Venice Louisiana
Country: United States
Join Date: Dec 2013
Posts: 1,097
316 stainless would be hard to beat. My experience has been that copper is fine but the oldest I have dealt with personally is on a 1972 trawler, fuel, steering and fresh water plumbing was all copper. I saw no deterioration at all on the fuel and steering lines and some green spots on the water lines. All was well and working fine. It has all been changed out during the ongoing refit. Steel and Trident hose for fuel, new coated copper for steering, pex for water. The benefit of copper is ease of use and availabilty. But, it may only last 40 or 50 years so other things may be better .
__________________

kulas44 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-10-2014, 10:51 AM   #23
Member
 
wi4x4man's Avatar
 
City: Saxon Harbor, WI
Country: USA
Vessel Name: Iron Horse
Vessel Model: 1981 Mainship 34II
Join Date: May 2014
Posts: 10
True, I am sure that it has held up as has mine. But remember, only a few years ago you could easily get regular No.2 diesel. Now (at least where I live) no one supplies it, and it is all ULSD. I talked to a friend of mine who owns a gas station, and he said he could get it, BUT he would need to get an entire tanker load of it. Given the federal fines, no one wants to take on the liability because ultimately it is the distributor that gets dinged. So, if I was willing to buy 8000 gallons of it, I would be golden. But I cannot afford $30,000 worth of fuel (not to mention I have no place to store it).

I always go back to ethanol blends in gasoline. The feds decided to subsidize it and make it law. Now the repair business is going nuts fixing ethanol related failures in everything. Of course forget the fact that you also lose fuel economy with ethanol, but whatever, politicians don't understand physics. When will biodiesel blends become law just like ethanol? Old boats like mine can't handle it unless you drown in fuel additives.

So yeah, the lines could last another 20+ years. But a lot has changed in the last 5 years with the introduction of IT4 and Final Tier 4 emissions, and the allowed fuel. Granted, boats (at this point) will only be Tier 3, but even with Tier 3, ULSD is fine to use, so it is not going to be going away, even in the marine world.
wi4x4man is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-10-2014, 05:34 PM   #24
Guru
 
Mule's Avatar
 
City: Fort Pierce
Country: USA
Vessel Name: Florita Ann
Vessel Model: 1982 Present
Join Date: May 2014
Posts: 1,784
Drill and tapping is excellent. I made no effort to repair from the inside, I only cleaned and inspected. I had one very, very slow weeper. I got to them (tanks) in time. All I did was fill with splash any pits, and there were some after wire brushing, acid wash, rewash then acetone wipe. This product Splash is rated to stand up to diesel though only the microscopic weeper will be the only test.. Then sanded same and started the epoxy cloth epoxy process on tanks I covered bunks with resin 2coats thick after countersinking the securing screws. 2years later, so far so good, boat will be sold soon hopefully. Now I have mild steel cloth-resin covered tanks on the1982 Present no leaks...yet...even though a single engine, if they are to be serviced there will be no repair for they will come out piece at a time. Replaced with multiple tanks no doubt. Hopefully I will get a few years breathing time before that hits. 135 Super Ford Lehman, 21000 lb, got passed by a damn sail boat on the ICW.....Jeezzz. 5.5 knots.
Mule is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-10-2014, 05:44 PM   #25
Guru
 
boatpoker's Avatar
 
City: Port Credit
Country: Ontario
Vessel Name: DIRT FREE
Vessel Model: Benford Fantail 38
Join Date: Sep 2012
Posts: 2,011
"electrolysis" has nothing to do with it. It is possible that you had a galvanic reaction between the securing straps and the aluminum tank.

The more likely cause and I've seen it many times, is that the tanks are mounted directly on a plywood deck with no air space between the deck and tank. This lack of air space allows moisture to be held in constant contact with the aluminum and the moisture becomes stagnant and causes poultice corrosion of the aluminum. This condition is much accelerated in a salt air environment.

That is why ABYC Diesel Fuel Systems H33 states ........

33.10.7 Metallic fuel tanks installed above a flat surface shall be separated from the surfaces by at least ” air space when filled with fuel and the flat mounting surface shall be self draining.
__________________
If you can live with the consequences, go for it - wg
Y'am what I y'am an' thats' all that y'am - Popeye
As God is my witness, I thought turkey's could fly. Mr.C
boatpoker is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-15-2016, 10:22 PM   #26
Newbie
 
City: Toronto
Country: Canada
Join Date: Jun 2015
Posts: 1
fuel leaks

Hello All
I put a deposit today on a Mainship34 at slash down the Port tank sprung a leak the fuel as cross fed to starboard and the port tank locked out. I still am going to buy the boat with a price reduction but hope to get our short season out of the single tank operation The posts are very informative and I will add tips as they occur
Hink is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-16-2016, 09:46 AM   #27
Member
 
wi4x4man's Avatar
 
City: Saxon Harbor, WI
Country: USA
Vessel Name: Iron Horse
Vessel Model: 1981 Mainship 34II
Join Date: May 2014
Posts: 10
If I were you I would not take the liability risk, and instead shut both tanks down and run with a day tank. If one is leaking, the other is going to come next in a very short period of time. It would really suck to have the starboard tank start leaking (unbeknownst to you) and the bilge pump kick in, dumping that fuel to the water. You would be looking at some very big fines!

My Mainship is extremely fuel efficient and with a 35 gallon day tank I can get quite a bit of cruising in. Granted I only cruise at 7 knots, and am not doing it for extended periods of time (about 60 miles is the longest round trip) and even still I have quite a bit left in the tank.

I will admit though that I still have yet to fix the main tanks. Having a boat 2 hours from home is a challenge, especially working a full time job, having a family, and owning a farm. I have decided to instead build a custom trailer and haul her home for a complete refit inside my shop, something I can do during the long Northern Wisconsin winters. Planning on doing that in the fall of 2018 as it will fit within my PM schedule that way.

Aside from fixing the tanks, I am going to completely rebuild the cockpit deck (with hatches to get to the tanks), rewire the entire vessel (both AC and DC systems) install new electronics, replace every hose on board with exception to the new ones I already installed, re-organize the engine room for better access to everything, install new upholstery on the flybridge, and change the interior layout. With a wife and five (yes, FIVE) kids, she can get pretty cramped when it comes time to hit the rack.

The goal is to bring her to Bristol condition. Best of all, I love working on her, but it is just too difficult to do so far away from my shop.
wi4x4man is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-16-2016, 10:41 AM   #28
Senior Member
 
clynn's Avatar
 
City: Memphis
Country: USA
Vessel Name: Ivory Lady
Vessel Model: 46 Jefferson
Join Date: Jun 2015
Posts: 266
As a former owner of a 34 Mainship, I completely agree with wi4x4man.

I heard a story about a guy that made a brief stop at a marina during a trip. His starting battery was low, so he had to turn on his generator to charge the battery to start the boat. Turns out the fuel line to the generator developed a small crack and diesel fuel went out back of the boat. It wasn't running for more than a few minutes when the leak was discovered, but it made a nasty mess on top of the water. The leak was not deemed a hazard by the authorities that were called, but it could have been a real problem.

Now consider not a cracked fuel line, but a leaking tank. OMG, after that experience, that unnamed guy takes zero chances with fuel spills...zero.

Oh, and make sure you have fuel spill coverage on your insurance.
__________________

clynn is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off





All times are GMT -5. The time now is 02:39 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 4
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
Search Engine Optimization by vBSEO 3.6.0
Copyright 2006 - 2012