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Old 05-21-2013, 01:59 PM   #61
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I am considering purchasing a '89 Bayliner with a gasoline engine (I just learned the difference between an engine and a motor, thank you). I am concerned with the gasoline aspect but I'm not really sure why. I'm not afraid of the gasoline. I plan to use the bilge blowers at all times. My perception is diesel is better but there again, I don't know why. I don't think there's enough difference in the raw fuel costs to be a factor is there? At six to eight knots is there a great deal of difference between diesel and gas?
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Old 05-21-2013, 02:35 PM   #62
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Your gasoline engine is great as long as you can deal w the danger and the fuel burn.

And you're ahead of many here that don't know what an "engine" or a "motor" is.
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Old 05-21-2013, 04:28 PM   #63
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Well, the fuel burn is kind of what I was asking about. Just how much burn do you think there would be in this size boat with the typical twin 240hp engines running at trawler speeds? Weight about 17,500. Would trolling speeds be a lot better? I don't know the engine brand yet.
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Old 05-21-2013, 04:59 PM   #64
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The efficiency (and longevity) of a diesel motor would be my preference. I don't think I could push my twin Lehmans into double digits of fuel burn at the pace I run. I burn unbelievably small quantities of fuel compared to my last boat (7.4L gas in a 28 foot Bayliner)
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Old 05-21-2013, 07:48 PM   #65
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What model Bayliner? I have a 3870 with the naturally aspirated Hinos & love the boat. They made these with gas power & I think in this size of boat diesel is a better choice if you put 100+ hours a season on your boat. Less than that and gas is a logical choice.
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Old 05-21-2013, 11:36 PM   #66
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Good point RC.

Mercedes Benz once only recommended you buy their 190-D (diesel) if you drove more than 40000 miles a year.

What do you suppose the trawler equivalent be?

100 hrs?
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Old 05-22-2013, 11:47 AM   #67
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I think displacement is a key consideration. My haul-out weight is 37.4K pounds and a larger 4588 is less than 30K. This extra weight would provide better stability and make a live aboard a bit more comfortable. The extra weight would certainly make a pair of gassers a spendy option.

If you were only living aboard and not using the boat much for cruising, the engine operating efficiencies are probably a wash. I think living above a gasoline tank would be less favorable than diesel.
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Old 05-22-2013, 07:39 PM   #68
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What model Bayliner? I have a 3870 with the naturally aspirated Hinos & love the boat. They made these with gas power & I think in this size of boat diesel is a better choice if you put 100+ hours a season on your boat. Less than that and gas is a logical choice.
It's a 3888 with twin 351 Ford engines. I have not seen it in person yet. What are the big concerns with gas? Obviously many are worried about gas fumes. What are the precautions? The boat has been alive since 1989 without exploding so I figure it can be done but I don't know the procedures for how to ensure safety. What other issues may be prevalent in Bayliners particularly that I should be aware of? I don't see putting more than 100 hours per year on the boat for several more years. Fuel burn: The PO claims 10-12GPH at 2800RPM giving 14K speed. Is this linear so that simple calculations would lead me to somewhat accurate fuel burn rates for 7-8 knots? Thanks for your opinions.
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Old 05-22-2013, 07:43 PM   #69
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Your fuel burn above a hypothetical hull speed is not linear. Once you get above that hull speed sweet spot, fuel burn goes up rather precipitously in most boats.
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Old 05-22-2013, 07:50 PM   #70
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As for gas engine precautions, bilge blowers are a key. Run them religiously before start and even after shut down, as gas in the carburetor(s) can stink. Check all of fuel lines and tanks to make sure all is tight and sound. I replaced my 48 year old fuel tanks this past year as I just didn't trust them and I kept thinking I was smelling gas fumes. Additionally, everything that can be, should be ignition protected in your engine room. I just tore out my 351 because I had no idea how old it was, how it had been cared for, and parts were getting harder to come by and the 350 is ubiquitous. If you run that beast at 7 knots or so religiously, your economy will be not far from that of a diesel and those Fords should last a good long time.
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Old 05-22-2013, 07:50 PM   #71
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MVN,
Actually 1/2 to 1 knot BEFORE hull speed the curve gets much steeper.
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Old 05-22-2013, 07:52 PM   #72
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MVN,
Actually 1/2 to 1 knot BEFORE hull speed the curve gets much steeper.
Listen to Eric. He knows way more than I do about these things. I trust him.
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Old 05-22-2013, 09:31 PM   #73
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It's a 3888 with twin 351 Ford engines. I have not seen it in person yet. What are the big concerns with gas? Obviously many are worried about gas fumes. What are the precautions? The boat has been alive since 1989 without exploding so I figure it can be done but I don't know the procedures for how to ensure safety. What other issues may be prevalent in Bayliners particularly that I should be aware of? I don't see putting more than 100 hours per year on the boat for several more years. Fuel burn: The PO claims 10-12GPH at 2800RPM giving 14K speed. Is this linear so that simple calculations would lead me to somewhat accurate fuel burn rates for 7-8 knots? Thanks for your opinions.
As long as the fuel system & blowers are maintained properly there shouldn't be any problems, a occasional sniff of the engine compartment will warn you of any fuel leaks. The 38s are comfortable boats and if the boat surveys well I wouldn't let the gas power kill the deal, the 351 Fords will give years of service if maintained. It should also be priced to reflect the fact that gas is not as popular in this size boat as diesel, and when the time comes for you to sell it'll bring less than diesel but you'll have less in it. I do think that 100 + hours a season is where paying the extra for diesel power efficiency should be considered when buying a boat.
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Old 05-22-2013, 10:26 PM   #74
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VERY flattering words MVNoPlans,

The curve is very steep for a FD hull. The Willard 40 (a huge boat compared to my W30) burns considerably less fuel at 7 knots than my W30. Water line length rules.

But the steepness of the curve (for SD) is probably or most likely less steep than w a FD hull. And of course a FD boat at one knot OVER hull speed requires a tremendous amount of power (many (like my own)) aren't even capable of one knot over hull speed ... not even close. Comparatively speaking the SD hull requires considerably considerably more power to go one knot over hull speed but no where near the amount a FD hull requires.

What I'm work'in up to is that w a SD hull running a little closer to hull speed (faster ... closer to hull speed) is probably still an excellent speed to run regularly. I'm not sure about this but close to it.
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Old 05-22-2013, 11:20 PM   #75
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Fuel burn: The PO claims 10-12GPH at 2800RPM giving 14K speed.
That's got to be per engine.
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Old 05-23-2013, 01:50 AM   #76
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It's a 3888 with twin 351 Ford engines. I have not seen it in person yet. What are the big concerns with gas? Obviously many are worried about gas fumes. What are the precautions? The boat has been alive since 1989 without exploding so I figure it can be done but I don't know the procedures for how to ensure safety. What other issues may be prevalent in Bayliners particularly that I should be aware of? I don't see putting more than 100 hours per year on the boat for several more years. Fuel burn: The PO claims 10-12GPH at 2800RPM giving 14K speed. Is this linear so that simple calculations would lead me to somewhat accurate fuel burn rates for 7-8 knots? Thanks for your opinions.
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VERY flattering words MVNoPlans,

The curve is very steep for a FD hull. The Willard 40 (a huge boat compared to my W30) burns considerably less fuel at 7 knots than my W30. Water line length rules.

But the steepness of the curve (for SD) is probably or most likely less steep than w a FD hull. And of course a FD boat at one knot OVER hull speed requires a tremendous amount of power (many (like my own)) aren't even capable of one knot over hull speed ... not even close. Comparatively speaking the SD hull requires considerably considerably more power to go one knot over hull speed but no where near the amount a FD hull requires.

What I'm work'in up to is that w a SD hull running a little closer to hull speed (faster ... closer to hull speed) is probably still an excellent speed to run regularly. I'm not sure about this but close to it.
I think you are correct.

The boat has a 47' hull, so figure 44' WLL

My boat at 7.5 knots burns about 1.75nmpg = 1.13 sqrt wll
9 knots is 1.5nmpg = 1.35 sqrt wll
10 knots is 1 nmpg = 1.50 sqrt wll
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Old 03-20-2017, 11:40 PM   #77
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Hello all,

We are old sailors who are looking at buying a trawler to live aboard in the warm south during our cold winter months. The budget isn't high, so we (think) we have narrowed it down to either a Mark 111 Mainship 34(1984) or a 1988 Bayliner 3870. Apart from the obvious difference in fuel consumption, what other comments do people have about the pros and cons of each of these boats?

We appreciate any and all input.
Cheers,
Alison
I know this is an old question, but I'll answer it since I looked at several Mainship 34's before I discovered the Bayliner 3818/3888/3870's. Loved the simple design of the Mainship 34 when I first looked at it, and all the room it had (compared to a 26' MacGregor 26X motorsailer I had at the time). The idea of a single diesel was both good and bad...lower fuel consumption, but no redundancy (and that has come in handy once for me). About the only thing that kept me from buying a Mainship 34 (twice) was that it only had one stateroom...weekends or weeks at the beach on the boat are generally me, my lady friend, and either my teenage daughter OR a guest or two. I really wanted two private staterooms.

After I stumbled across the Bayliner 38xx's, I was glad that I had paused long enough to not buy a Mainship 34. The Bayliner 38xx's have two staterooms (plus two heads, and a shower/tub shared between the two staterooms, separated by sliding doors on both sides), and even the midship's stateroom is plenty big enough for two adults. This was the winning point in my case...two staterooms, plus the table in the salon can be wrestled down to make another king-size bed. I don't like the built-in seating and raised platform in the salon area...but it does give you a lot more room in the engine room, and it's workable. (I do like the open "put whatever you want here" plan of the Mainship 34 better.)

The 175hp (400 or so ft-lbs of torgue) naturally-aspirated Hino EH-700 diesels were made by a Toyota subsidiary and re-branded as US Marine, and they tend to be engines with a long life. Parts are available (regardless of what a local shop will tell you...they may have to be ordered though), but some of them are expensive (manicoolers are about $5K each, although existing ones can often be pulled and ceramic-coated to extend the life to another 30 years or something crazy)...stainless steel risers are about $1200 each (and there are three different makers for them). The Hino's are rebuildable in-place (don't have to be pulled from the boat), cylinders are sleeved, and rebuild kits, hoses, belts, impellers, etc., are all available for those engines. You will find a few 38xx's that have been repowered with Cummin's 6BTA's that produce a lot more horsepower (and the boat goes a lot faster, at the expense of burning more fuel of course). You can find all sorts of info on the Hino engines at the Bayliner Owners Club forum (BOC.com). A diesel is a diesel, so any marine diesel mechanic who isn't hell-bent on selling you a Cummin's repower can work on them, if they are willing. There's also a Hino guru in Washington state who travels around the country in a motorhome and works on the Hino's. I don't think you'd end up *stuck* with a non-repairable engine, although you might have to wait on parts to be shipped and put a little work into finding a mechanic with the right attitude.

I'm 5'10", and on the Mainship 34, I would periodically bang my head going down the steps to the galley and front stateroom. There's much more head space at the galley-down steps in the Bayliner, and I can't possibly reach high enough to bonk my head going up or down those steps. I spent a lot of time on sailboats, and got really tired of constantly banging my head on something.

I looked carefully at three Bayliner 38xx's before buying the one I have...there are rarely any problems with the hulls on these boats (they are all solid 1.5" thick fiberglass, no wood-coring below the waterline, and have a vinylester coating applied...I've never seen anyone complain about blistering on the hull below the waterline).

If you run at hull speed, you'll get around 2 nmpg of fuel from the Bayliner 38xx with a reasonably clean bottom, so the fuel burn between the twin Hino's in the Bayliner 38xx and the single Perkins in the Mainship 34 are definitely in the same ballpark (which is surprising considering the 12,500 lb vs 20,000 lb weights). In good shape and good tuning, the Bayliner 38xx is a little faster than the Mainship, but not by a huge margin...I got one 38xx that I sea-trialed up to 18 knots, but it was low on fuel, no fresh or grey water onboard, no supplies...it was empty and lightly-loaded. Mine is heavily-loaded (too much so, in fact) and needs a little engine maintenance (valve adjustment, injector cleaning, maybe slight repitching of the props), so I tend to top out at 12-13 knots or so. I sea-trialed an old Mainship 34 with a new Perkin's 185hp (or 200hp?) diesel in it, and it topped out at 14 knots, so I think they are in the same ballpark speed-wise (although the Bayliner *should be* several knots faster). The Bayliner 38xx likes to take a bow-up attitude above hull speed, so make sure trim tabs are working properly, and realize the inside helm will have very limited visibility except at or below hull speed. I just had the engine hatch open last weekend over the starboard engine, and it's amazing to me that the 27 year old 2600 hour Hino diesels in this boat are clean and dry...there's not a single oil leak or drip that I could see, they are almost clean enough to eat off of. You can run these large engines at hull speed forever without worrying about accumulating soot in a turbo, etc. At 175hp, these engines have a very low hp/displacement ratio, which means they tend to have a long life. The same engines were turbocharged (250hp), and put into the 4588's.

After having a twin engine boat, I would not want to go back to a single-engine boat. I had an engine problem once (a faulty ground wire sounded the oil pressure alarm, so I shut one engine off...we limped back to dock easily, although docking with only one engine is NOT easy in this boat). You can spin the boat on it's axis with the twin engines, and you can also walk it sideways with some practice...can't do those things in a single-engine boat (unless you have stern and bow thrusters), and it makes docking this 10-ton boat a lot easier than you'd think. Oh, although it's labelled/named a "38 footer", if you measure it from swim platform to bow pupit, it's 42' long (although I've never had a marina get out a tape measure and measure it yet).

Just like the Mainship 34's, the Bayliner 38xx's have wood-cored decks and flybridge floor, so check those carefully when you look/buy. The flybridge floor is usually the most at risk, but from what I saw when looking, the 38xx's with a fully enclosed flybridge often didn't have any soft spots. (I did encounter one 38xx with a soft spot on the bow deck, but I think that was unusual.) Most of them have some minor rot in the teak at the back corner of the windows...something leaks in from the drain rail on top. Not true of all of them, mine doesn't have any rot there...but the first two I looked at did.

Just like the two engines, I like the redundancy of two heads on the Bayliner 38xx, although that is twice as many heads to maintain. The waste holding tank is poly, and I haven't heard of many of those failing (I know of one)....it's under the floor in the front master stateroom. The freshwater tank is aluminum, and I've seen several folks have that fail...it's under the galley and midship's stateroom floor. The 150 gallon fuel tanks are aluminum, and I have seen a couple folks have those fail...but they are under the bed in the midship's stateroom, and can be removed and replaced (not easily, but you don't have to practically cut the boat in half to get them out). Sometimes the fuel tanks will develop a leak around the fuel-sender, so if any doubt, check/replace that first. Or just don't fill them over 3/4 full (they can leak out around the fuel-senders when 100% full since the boat takes a bow-up attitude).

The original reverse-cycle heat/AC units will roast you even in cold weather if you want them to...AC sometimes struggles to keep up in August summers here in the South due to all the windows in the 39xx...shade the outside, and they'll do fine. Or replace them with larger units. Power is 2x30amp, but everything seems to run fine off 50amps with a splitter/Y-cable.

I love this boat...it's plenty comfortable in both warm and cold weather, and has actually changed how we use a boat (into the winter now, it has extended the season quite a bit). Most 27 year old cars (for instance) would be "junk" by now...these boats hold up well.

And "yes", I would consider the 38xx's to be "trawler yachts" or "fast trawlers", depending on how you use it.

Hope this all helps! Ask me any questions, and I'll try to find an answer!

Cheers,
Dave
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Old 10-10-2017, 08:25 AM   #78
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Dave, thank you for a very detailed post about your experiences looking at Mainship 34's and the Bayliner 38xx. I have also been looking at Mainships and Bayliners. Although I like the fuel burn of the single Mainship, I feel a twin screw would be much easier for me because I will be docking single handed most of the time. The dual staterooms is also a very distinct advantage. I believe I will be concentrating on the 38 Bayliners.

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Old 10-10-2017, 09:27 AM   #79
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Dave, thank you for a very detailed post about your experiences looking at Mainship 34's and the Bayliner 38xx. I have also been looking at Mainships and Bayliners. Although I like the fuel burn of the single Mainship, I feel a twin screw would be much easier for me because I will be docking single handed most of the time. The dual staterooms is also a very distinct advantage. I believe I will be concentrating on the 38 Bayliners.

Donald

I had owned a Mainship 34 (1978) with a single 165 Perkins for a couple of seasons before I owned a 1986 Bayliner 38 with the 175 Hino's.
Not trying to be too picky but while Dave's post is very good there are a number of "close but not correct" statements about each boat that might lead someone a bit astray. So do your homework well and know the details of whatever boat you find is right for you.
To us the 38 Bayliner was a large upgrade given its much larger, had twins, allowed us to plane and buck tides and carried more people and tankage.
If you are concentrating on the Bayliners it is well worth a visit to the baylinerownersclub(dot)org.
Good luck with your search
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