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Old 02-24-2012, 12:43 PM   #21
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RE: Taiwanese is rough seas and caribbean crossings?

Because it is out of print and Bruce's health is not great so it will never be reprinted by him. It is a very popular book but people are just trying to make as much money from it as possible. We gave our copy away and it was signed by Bruce. These prices are just a rip off but I guess it is true that there is a sucker born every minute. Chuck
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Old 02-24-2012, 03:03 PM   #22
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RE: Taiwanese is rough seas and caribbean crossings?

Quote:
lostviking wrote:
Some old captains in Norway said they wore "'under powered".*
*My 93 year old Norwegian father-in-law piloted 40 foot boats with 20hp semidiesels on the Norway coast before joining the Norwegian Royal Navy. He thinks of a 120hp engine in a 36 foot boat as seriously overpowered!

*
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Old 02-24-2012, 03:53 PM   #23
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RE: Taiwanese is rough seas and caribbean crossings?

Quote:
*My 93 year old Norwegian father-in-law piloted 40 foot boats with 20hp semidiesels on the Norway coast before joining the Norwegian Royal Navy. He thinks of a 120hp engine in a 36 foot boat as seriously overpowered!

*
*Cool guy! He is probably an awesome sailor too.
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Old 02-26-2012, 02:17 PM   #24
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RE: Taiwanese is rough seas and caribbean crossings?

Quote:
lostviking wrote:
Do the design and a single 120 lehman or equal put up a decent fight if the weather gets rough?
*Is your question about the reliability of the FL120 or its power?* They are two different issues.* An FL120 properly operated, serviced, and maintained is as reliable as any other engine and moreso than some.* They--- and the same-generation Perkins engines--- were used in commericial fishboats as well as recreational cruisers and as such have run long hours in a variety of conditions.

The one drawback to an FL120 on long cruises is the oil in the injection pump has to be changed every 50 hours.* This is not a long or difficult job--- I can do it in about ten minutes not counting the time it takes me to get into position round the back of our starboard engine.* But it's very important to do this no matter what people who will tell you that you can go hundreds of hours beween pump oil changes claim.* Believe them now if you want, pay a lot for their bad advice later.

Whether or not the FL120 is powerful enough for a particular situation is a whole different matter.* Depends on the boat, depends on the situation.* It is definitely not an engine you want to run at high power settings very long in an attempt to outrun bad weather.* The base Ford engine was not built for that kind of service, failed often when it was operated this way in the late 1950s when it first came out as a truck engine, and still will today.*

If you want enough reserve power to make your boat pick up and go--- even if that means going from 8 knots to 10 or 12--- the FL120 is not an engine I would recommend for that task.* Nor, in my opinion, is any engine from that era with the possible exception of a Detroit (of the engines I am familiar with).

But if the boat (and you) can take it in terms of water and weather conditions, the FL120 should too provided it's in good condition and is getting good fuel.

But I don't think the engine is so much the issue here.* For a passage of the type you are contemplating, I would pay close attention to the posters here who are talking about watching the weater and so on.

The other thing to keep in mind is that a $30k boat of the type we're talking about here will most likely be in pretty rough shape.* The fuel tanks, for example, could be full of crud on the bottom.* And that has a far greater potential to stop you dead in the water if the weather kicks up than the engine's reliability as your filter(s) clog with the gunk stirred up by the boat's motion.

There could be leaks waiting to happen in the fuel system-- hoses, fittings, seals, etc.

Electrical systems can and probably will fail in some manner at some point on an old boat in the condition that $30k will get you.* The steering may be in iffy condition and let go or jam when you least need it to.* And so on.

So I would be FAR more concerned about the ability of a $30k cruiser of the type most of us on this forum have of making the journey than I would be about the abiity of the engine to make it, assuming the engine was not abused and poorly maintained in the past.

A survey will show you some of the problems but not all of them no matter how good the surveyor is.* Something that looks okay today can fail tomorrow.* It's the nature of old boats.* Actually, it's the nature of all boats because they live in an environment that is trying its best to destroy them with corrosion, rot, delamination, rust, etc.
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Old 02-26-2012, 02:34 PM   #25
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RE: Taiwanese is rough seas and caribbean crossings?

Thank you!

I did not know about the 50 hrs oil change. That is frequent. It means about 4 oil changes on that passage.

*

This is the kind of answer i was looking for initially, but there is so many great contributions here!

*

Love this forum!

*
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Old 02-26-2012, 02:49 PM   #26
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Taiwanese is rough seas and caribbean crossings?

The FL120 is happiest running at a fairly constant speed between 1500 and 1800 rpm. All else being equal, this yields the maximum service life. This is not my theory or belief but what I have been told by marine diesel experts and a retired fellow we met the other year who for decades had a business in England servicing, repairing, and overhauling Ford diesels including the Ford Dorset engine that is the base engine for the marinized FL120 This is why the engine proved to be a failure in its intended purpose as a truck engine but proved to be very successful as an agricultural and industrial engine running things like generators, cranes, pumps, tractors, and combines. All of them applications that required relatively low power, good torque, and fairly constant engine rpm. Which is also what made it ideal in its day as a marine engine.

Be aware that the FL135, Lehman's marinization of the Ford Dover diesel and which was used in boats of a later generation than those powered with the FL120, not only develops somewhat more power but does not have the 50-hour injection pump oil change requirement as its injection pump is lubed by the engine's circulating lube oil.


-- Edited by Marin on Sunday 26th of February 2012 03:51:59 PM
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Old 02-27-2012, 01:05 PM   #27
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RE: Taiwanese is rough seas and caribbean crossings?

Is there any way to upgrade the Injector on the FL120 so it does not need frequent oil change?
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Old 02-27-2012, 05:58 PM   #28
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RE: Taiwanese is rough seas and caribbean crossings?

Quote:
lostviking wrote:
Is there any way to upgrade the Injector on the FL120 so it does not need frequent oil change?
*Yea... Buy a Perkins!
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Old 02-27-2012, 05:59 PM   #29
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RE: Taiwanese is rough seas and caribbean crossings?

I dont know of any, but its such an easy job I dont know why you would want to. Besides, every time you are in your engine room you learn a bit of something about her. Its one more thing to keep you on your toes to know whats going on down there, its your boats heart and you should know whats going on with it,with out it ,put up the sails. BB
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Old 02-28-2012, 12:18 AM   #30
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RE: Taiwanese is rough seas and caribbean crossings?

Great argumentation. It is good to check for leaks and wear from time to time also. Every 50 hours seems good. It is only every 6th day or so if only doing long legs in daylight.
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Old 02-28-2012, 02:47 AM   #31
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RE: Taiwanese is rough seas and caribbean crossings?

Quote:
lostviking wrote:
Is there any way to upgrade the Injector on the FL120 so it does not need frequent oil change?
Yes there is. It's not an upgrade per se but an accepted manner of plumbing the pump sump to the oil system on a home-made basis.* The "conversions" I've seen photos of connect the injection pump sump to the oil line coming out of the oil filter and then back into the lube oil heat exchanger (or something like that).* I've only heard of a few people doing this.*

One knowledgeable and experienced fellow in the UK who's on the GB forum who restored a wood GB32 that had this modification on its FL120 changed it back to the stock system because he felt the stock, self-contained sump did a better and more reliable job of lubricating the pump's drive mechanism (the lube oil does not lubricate the injection plungers in their bores--- the fuel does that).

Since the pump oil change is so easy and quick I've never had any motivation to explore changing ours other than to know that it can be done.
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Old 02-28-2012, 03:02 AM   #32
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RE: Taiwanese is rough seas and caribbean crossings?

Quote:
lostviking wrote:
Every 50 hours seems good. It is only every 6th day or so if only doing long legs in daylight.
The reason for the 50 hour oil change requirement is that it's the nature of a jerk-injection fuel pump-- which is what the CAV/SIMMS/Minimec inline injection pump on an FL120 is--- to over time wear its injection plungers and the bores they run in.* As the bores and plungers-- which have a very tight clearance because this is what provides the pressure for each injector "shot"--- wear they allow a bit of fuel to leak down past them on every stroke.* This fuel leaks down into the lube oil in the sump below the injection bores and dilutes the lube oil.* The more diluted the lube oil, the less lubrication it provides, and the more wear can occur in the pump's drive mechanism.

The more the engine is used the more the plungers and bores wear and the greater the volume of fuel leaking down becomes.* This, by the way, is why lubricity in the fuel is so critical to older diesels with these types of injection pumps, plus the fuel also lubes the moving parts in the injectors themselves.

Eventually the wear and subsequent leakage become severe enough that they begin to affect the ability of the plungers to produce the right injection pressure and the engine's efficiency and smooth running starts to suffer.* At that point, it's time to have the pump overhauled, a not-inexpensive proposition.

But up to this point, fuel has been getting down into the lube oil in gradually increasing quantities and diluting it.* A newly ovrhauled pump will not leak at all, and one that is nearing the need for an overhaul will leak a lot, with everything else somewhere in between.* The 50 hour oil change interval was selected to make sure that no matter how much oil dilution may be occuring with a pump that is still operating within the acceptable injection pressure range, the oil will not become so diluted as to start posing a threat to the pump's drive mechanism.
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Old 02-28-2012, 07:08 AM   #33
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RE: Taiwanese is rough seas and caribbean crossings?

Wow. This was insightful.
Now I will not mess with the service interval or do any thing funny to the oil filter.

On the used boat there is a huge different on the photos of the engine bays. Some look like brand new after 40 years and others look like they come from a salvaged ship.

How thoroughly is it possible to damage the engine with 40 years of misuse?
What should I look for when I am going to select a boat. (before i call engine survey guy).
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Old 02-28-2012, 12:43 PM   #34
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RE: Taiwanese is rough seas and caribbean crossings?

You can damage an engine with fifteen minutes of misuse. I believe it is a mistake to try to equate engine condition with age. Our engines were apparently operated and maintained correctly by the four or five previous owners of the boat because today, 39 years after they were installed by the factory in Singapore, they use less than a quart of oil every 100-150 hours, they smoke only on startup (which if they don't there's something wrong :-) ), and they fire right up with no hesitation on the first turn of the starter assuming the ambient temperatures are not super-cold. They're not going to run like this forever but they're running like this now.

And we all know people who have had problems, maybe major ones, with engines that are relatively new.

I would say that if someone is operating a boat's engine in an abusive way, it may not make five years before needing major work let alone forty.

Low hours is not a guaranteed indication of an engine in good shape. A thirty year old engine with only a couple thousand hours or less on it can mean one of two things. One, the boat was used fairly frequently but only for pretty short trips. This was the case with our boat which spent its whole life on San Francisco Bay before we bought it. The boat was used frequently enough but distances are relatively short on the bay and up the river. So lots of short trips, low time on the engines.

Versus number two, which is the boat sat around a lot without being used. Unless the engine is properly pickled, this can be much worse for an engine's condition than being used. Given the choice between an engine with 8,000 hours of proper operation and maintenance in a boat that was used regularly and the same type and age of engine with 1,500 hours on it in a boat that was used very infrequently, I'd take the boat with the 8,000 hour engine all else being equal.
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Old 02-28-2012, 03:54 PM   #35
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RE: Taiwanese is rough seas and caribbean crossings?

You speak words of wisdom Marin.

I guess I just need to look at factors like how clean it is. If it is any visible rust, corrugation, oil spots ect. Obvious things.

I have some hobby mechanic skills for landrover engines, but that is not so voluntarily, haha!
I guess I will learn the engine after a while anyway. I still want to though.

Is there a kind of "haynes manual" for those kind of engines?

Haynes is ingenious!
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Old 02-28-2012, 04:19 PM   #36
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Taiwanese is rough seas and caribbean crossings?

Greetings,
Mr. lostviking, I fully agree with Mr. Marin. To me, a clean boat/engine/engine room is an indication that at least SOME maintenance has been done in a timely fashion*but that does not avoid the necessity for good surveys.

** You say you have "hobby mechanic skills".* Well, those will serve you well.* A fan belt is still a fan belt and an oil change is still an oil change.* Before I "adopted" the current vessel, I had NEVER worked on a diesel engine but short of getting into the "insides" of one, have been able to fix everything that's come up so far.


-- Edited by RT Firefly on Tuesday 28th of February 2012 05:19:59 PM
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Old 02-28-2012, 05:16 PM   #37
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RE: Taiwanese is rough seas and caribbean crossings?

Great!
I can change oil and fan belts.

Trouble arises when I hear funny sounds, hehe!

On a single engine at sea that might be a bad thing, so I want to prepare as good as I can.
Do any of you have a list on filters, oil quality, tools ect. who is recommended to have at all times by trawlers?

In a car I can manage to have engine troubles I cant sort out at the spot, but at sea I want to be able.
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Old 02-28-2012, 05:25 PM   #38
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RE: Taiwanese is rough seas and caribbean crossings?

On the Ford Lehaman 120, you have to remove the water hoses to replace the belt,I have two extras that I have allready inside the hoses ,zip tied to here and there,so I dont have to Loose any hoses. Losen the alternator, Slip the new belt on, off you go. BB
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Old 02-28-2012, 05:25 PM   #39
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Taiwanese is rough seas and caribbean crossings?

Greeting,
Mr. lost viking...For those "awkward" times you're caught short...********* http://www.boatus.com/Towing/


-- Edited by RT Firefly on Tuesday 28th of February 2012 06:25:49 PM
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Old 02-29-2012, 12:06 PM   #40
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Taiwanese is rough seas and caribbean crossings?

Quote:
lostviking wrote:Is there a kind of "haynes manual" for those kind of engines?
Not that I'm aware of.* However most engines will have had a service and parts manual available as well as an operators manual.* We have both the parts and Ford service manual for the FL120 on our boat.

One thing to be aware of, however.* A diesel engine is not like a car engine of the same vintage.* A 1950s-1960s automotive gas engine is a very simple piece of equipment with a carburetor and sloppy tolerances (relatively speaking).* Any shade-tree mechanic can work on them successfully.

But a diesel like the FL120 is a somewhat different animal.* Water pumps, the belt, setting valve clearances, oil and coolant changes, and things like that are well within the ability of a mildly experienced auto guy.

But--- and this is just my advice, some may not agree--- don't even think about messing wit the injection pump or the injectors.* The in-line injection pump on the FL120 is amazingly complex piece of equipment with very precise settings and even more precise tolerances.* And unless you know what you are doing, it's the sort of thing that your screwing with it can result in "I adjusted that but now that doesn't work right."* It is a very "inter-related" device and everything has to be set exactly right in order for it all to work properly.

So in my opinon, unless one actually happens to be a qualified diesel mechanic, the injection pump and injectors should be left to the shop to deal with if they develop a problem.

Fortunately, if the engine is operated the way it was intended to be operated when they designed and built it, the injection pump is a very reliable unit outside of the plunger/bore wear I mentioned earlier which is just something that happens with this kind of pump.*

This was not the case when the engine was used for its original purpose which was to power heavy duty (by late '50s standards), over-the-road trucks.* The constantly changing rpm, the constantly varying load on the engine, and the higher rpm that was often needed to climb hills and maintain highway speeds were simply too much for the design, and failures were frequent according to the people I've talked to who had experience with this engine in the UK "back in the day."* The injection pump in particular was an Achilles' heel in this kind of service.* So in this regard, the engine was considered a failure and Ford quickly stopped using it as a truck engine.

But in the lower power, constant load, constant and conservative rpm range typical of industrial and agricultural engines, the Ford Dorset did just great.


-- Edited by Marin on Wednesday 29th of February 2012 01:09:43 PM
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