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Old 03-22-2013, 01:13 PM   #1
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1978 CHB 34' tri-cabin SURVEYORS...

Hey group!


I am taking a 'SEA TRIAL' tomorrow 03/23/13 and looking forward to the experience!

If all goes well, we will have our mechanical survey next week and then finally, a haul out with full survey...

Wondering if anyone can recommend a quality CHB/Taiwan Trawler Surveyor in the Marina Del Rey CA area.

As usual, our broker "has a guy" but it would be comforting to know the survey was conducted by not only a Trawler knowledgable guy, but an independent perspective as well.

Cheers!
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Old 03-22-2013, 01:30 PM   #2
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No recommendation on a surveyor, but congratulations!

I have a CHB 42 Europa and if you haven'y already, you'll definitely want to join the CHB Owners Group on Yahoo at: CHB : CHB boat owners and interested parties

Lots of knowledgeable folks there for sure. They might know your boat or be able to recommend a surveyor in your area.
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Old 03-22-2013, 07:44 PM   #3
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Rick Gorman Pacific Marine Surveyors. 714-746-7380. boatchecker@gmail.com. If that falls through I have a 79 35 ft CHB aft cabin for sale in Oxnard. CHEAP!!!!!!!
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Old 03-22-2013, 08:47 PM   #4
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Rick Gorman Pacific Marine Surveyors. 714-746-7380. boatchecker@gmail.com. If that falls through I have a 79 35 ft CHB aft cabin for sale in Oxnard. CHEAP!!!!!!!
We came very very close to making a move on your boat then we found our Owens and fell head over heels. That IS a very nice boat and priced well too IMO.
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Old 03-23-2013, 10:55 AM   #5
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Hey group!

I am taking a 'SEA TRIAL' tomorrow 03/23/13 and looking forward to the experience!

If all goes well, we will have our mechanical survey next week and then finally, a haul out with full survey...

Wondering if anyone can recommend a quality CHB/Taiwan Trawler Surveyor in the Marina Del Rey CA area.

As usual, our broker "has a guy" but it would be comforting to know the survey was conducted by not only a Trawler knowledgable guy, but an independent perspective as well.

Cheers!
DO NOT use a surveyor recommended by the boat broker. Even if none was intentional, there will always be the whiff of impropriety. You will kick yourself for years.

That is an odd order of operations - sea trial, mechanical then haulout. Different coasts, different strokes.

Can't help on a specific surveyor. I'm on the wrong coast.

Good luck. Feel free to shout out any specific questions.

No. There are no manuals.
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Old 03-23-2013, 07:09 PM   #6
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We came very very close to making a move on your boat then we found our Owens and fell head over heels. That IS a very nice boat and priced well too IMO.
Hey make me an offer! Two boats sucks!
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Old 03-23-2013, 11:02 PM   #7
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Hey make me an offer! Two boats sucks!
I'll take your word for it

Sent from my iPhone using Trawler
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Old 03-24-2013, 01:19 AM   #8
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DO NOT use a surveyor recommended by the boat broker. Even if none was intentional, there will always be the whiff of impropriety. You will kick yourself for years.

That is an odd order of operations - sea trial, mechanical then haulout. Different coasts, different strokes.

Can't help on a specific surveyor. I'm on the wrong coast.

Good luck. Feel free to shout out any specific questions.

No. There are no manuals.
I don't agree, Al. In most markets, the brokers, surveyors, finance, and insurance folks all know each other, and easily recommend service providers to clients. By the same token, the bad eggs in any discipline are well known. It's wise to take the recommendation of the broker for a surveyor, then do your own due diligence.
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Old 03-24-2013, 10:28 AM   #9
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Thank you all for the Information!


Sea trial went amazingly well!. All systems operated flawlessly! Every light worked, all navigation gear was in good working order, and In general the boat was smooth and responsive... Well, as responsive as a 1978 CHB can be.

To address the process we are enduring...

We opted to fist Sea Trial because it was important to us to NOT pull the cart before the horse. The Sea Trial was free. Now my marine mechanic (who has become my good friend) will do a mechanical survey. This will cost me about $150.00. Unless he finds something seriously wrong, we will then proceed with a ships survey. This survey begins in the slip and will last a few hours. Again, if all goes well... The boat will then be hauled for the the final portion of the survey.

The idea is to NOT spend the money on a haul out if major issues can be found at the berth first. This can save a tremendous amount of time and money. So far, I am very pleased and feel my broker has acted in my best interest! I also have the guidance of some dear friends who have been down this road before. Like I say, I'm a quite pleased with how we are approaching this.

The only real concern thus far, is NOT having a bow thruster. Although for a single screw vessel she seems to Handel very well, in a tight marina I can imagine it could be very helpful especially if its windy. I am researching now what that process entails.

There seems to be a lot of "pit falls" with these older CHB's. From what I can see, they offer lots of space, comfort, and simple operation systems. The build quality in the ship we are interested in seems great (so far) and underway she feels very stout and confident. I am wondering how she would fair in large seas and windy conditions.

As we proceed, the only price of gear NOT working was the old depth sounder. It feels like I should upgrade to a modern more feature rich sounder/fish finder. Any suggestions? As we will most likely haul her this Thursday for the survey, the bottom needs new paint and I will probably also install a new modern through-hull transducer at that time. Anyone have suggestions for a feature rich plotter/fish finder system? I'm looking at the new Raytheon C-series displays and Nav system.

Anyway, any and all advice and comments are welcomed! I am new to this type of boating and as I am so close to "pulling the trigger" the more I know, the better.

Thanks group!

Cheers!
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Old 03-24-2013, 10:33 AM   #10
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I don't agree, Al. In most markets, the brokers, surveyors, finance, and insurance folks all know each other, and easily recommend service providers to clients. By the same token, the bad eggs in any discipline are well known. It's wise to take the recommendation of the broker for a surveyor, then do your own due diligence.
Sorry Pau.

"It's wise to take the recommendation of the broker for a surveyor" has got to be the worst advice ever given on any Internet forum since the beginning of time.

Yes, you must do your own due diligence. That includes getting an independent surveyor. Hopefully one that is sober. Even then it's a crap-shoot.

The combination of broker, surveyor, finance and insurance is designed to get as much money as fast as possible from the buyer. Some of it may actually get back to the seller (but that's his problem).

Just because everyone's wearing boat shoes doesn't make them your friends.
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Old 03-24-2013, 11:18 AM   #11
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I agree...


I am fortunate that our Broker happens to be a very close family friend.

If I was simply working with a random broker... I would trust only myself and my own hand picked surveyors/technicians!

A boat sale is complicated and often the seller and broker are not working in the best interest of the buyer.

Always remind yourself it is a BUYERS MARKET! It is all up to the buyer NOT the seller/broker!
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Old 03-24-2013, 11:21 AM   #12
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How did you have a sea trial without your surveyor on board? He is supposed to be checking systems while the boat is under operation.
I don't believe you had a sea trial. You had a 'boat ride'. That's nice. Make sure your surveyor stays awake during the real sea trial.

Wait until you have read his/her evaluation and you have paid for the boat until you begin installing equipment. The seller has no obligation to you and may actually sue you for 'damages' if you modify his boat. Your insurance will need the survey and your financial institution will require insurance as will all marinas. Everyone is making sure they are protecting themselves. And here you come walking down the dock with stars in your eyes and waving cash. Slow down, Cowboy.

Selling boats is the second oldest profession and they learned their craft from the first.

That said, a bow thruster is a nice to have. Not really necessary unless you have a biotch of a slip. Even so get another slip.
Mine doesn't have one. You don't get much change back from $10K when you check that box. 10 boat units can buy a lot of docking lessons.

Things to check on a 34 CHB:
Fuel tanks for leaks and rust. There are two types of 70's Taiwanese Trawlers - those with new fuel tanks and those that need them.
Window leaks. They are not just cosmetic. The water gets in the core of the deckhouse and rots it away. No core - no strength.
Deck leaks. See window leaks with the side effect of rusting fuel tank tops, steering gear rusting and rotting, hull stringers and bulkhead core rotting. See fuel tank leaks.
Skeg leaks. For some reason these boats have cracking in the rudder support that allows water to get to the steel skeg. It rusts and causes more cracking.
Electrical. No standards followed when constructed plus years of modifications. Something to think about.
Propane installation. Installation is rarely up to any safety standards.

None of these are reasons not to buy the boat but they are negotiable items. Also may be reasons to walk way. Just be informed and make your decision.
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Old 03-24-2013, 11:38 AM   #13
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How did you have a sea trial without your surveyor on board? He is supposed to be checking systems while the boat is under operation.
I don't believe you had a sea trial. You had a 'boat ride'. That's nice. Make sure your surveyor stays awake during the real sea trial.

Wait until you have read his/her evaluation and you have paid for the boat until you begin installing equipment. The seller has no obligation to you and may actually sue you for 'damages' if you modify his boat. Your insurance will need the survey and your financial institution will require insurance as will all marinas. Everyone is making sure they are protecting themselves. And here you come walking down the dock with stars in your eyes and waving cash. Slow down, Cowboy.

Selling boats is the second oldest profession and they learned their craft from the first.

That said, a bow thruster is a nice to have. Not really necessary unless you have a biotch of a slip. Even so get another slip.
Mine doesn't have one. You don't get much change back from $10K when you check that box. 10 boat units can buy a lot of docking lessons.

Things to check on a 34 CHB:
Fuel tanks for leaks and rust. There are two types of 70's Taiwanese Trawlers - those with new fuel tanks and those that need them.
Window leaks. They are not just cosmetic. The water gets in the core of the deckhouse and rots it away. No core - no strength.
Deck leaks. See window leaks with the side effect of rusting fuel tank tops, steering gear rusting and rotting, hull stringers and bulkhead core rotting. See fuel tank leaks.
Skeg leaks. For some reason these boats have cracking in the rudder support that allows water to get to the steel skeg. It rusts and causes more cracking.
Electrical. No standards followed when constructed plus years of modifications. Something to think about.
Propane installation. Installation is rarely up to any safety standards.

None of these are reasons not to buy the boat but they are negotiable items. Also may be reasons to walk way. Just be informed and make your decision.
Thanks for the advice!!

We had a "surveyor" with us for the sea trial. However, not the surveyor who will conduct the final survey.... To clarify, my good friend who was a licensed surveyor joined the sea trial as a favor. He did extensive poking around and testing of all systems during the trip.

As this is a "cash deal" the survey and purchase process is a bit simpler. If upon haul out she passes with flying colors and we do NOT discover major problems, we will complete the transaction and leave the boat in dry dock (in our name as the new owners) to apply bottom paint, install transducer, and complete any other safety repairs/work needed.

Bow thruster will have to wait... Too expensive and as i am discovering not very important... But I'm open to any and all comments regarding the usefulness of having or not having one.

Again, I feel like our approach is in our best interest and is following a good course of action. We are all on a budget. The official surveyor charges per foot by the hour... Having my trusted friend on the sea trial avoided a few hundred dollar expense which I need to try and avoid without compromising the process.

As mentioned, next up is our mechanical survey, Engine/generator/transmission fluid tests, electrical survey, and pluming. Then finally full Survey with a highly recommended (and costly) surveyor both in the slip and the yard.

I so appreciate all the advise and recommendations from this group!! Thanks!! Keep it coming!

Cheers!
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Old 03-26-2013, 08:15 PM   #14
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I'll second the advice 'Do nothing to the boat untill it is truly yours'. I saw a deal many years ago where someone did what you are thinking of and guess what , the seller backed out, since he now had a 'monkeyed' boat , new bottom paint and some new gear. No law suit here but a lot a bad feelings.

Give yourself time after you get the boat before you start buying new equipment, especially expensive stuff, to look around and ask questions. Your ideas may change, a LOT.

You may actually be better served by replacing the non functional sounder with a simple stand alone unit for now untill you really have a look around. Decent, functional, units don't have to cost a lot. Personally, for the replacement now I'd recommend a unit with a shoot through the hull transducer. Then when you get your goody you have a back up unit.

Many of us have single screw boats and no bow thruster. Sure I'd like one but I don't need it. If I had $10K to toss about maybe then but there are lots of other things that come before.
As suggested some instruction will be cheaper and more usefull in the long haul. Then decide. You may still want the thruster and will have had some time to decide which one and get quotes.

You will find , as you use the boat, that there are things that need work and replacement maybe simply because you don't like them even though all looked well at survey and purchase time. Keep some options open.


Hope all goes well.
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Old 03-26-2013, 08:33 PM   #15
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Thanks everyone for the great advice! To be clear no work was going to be done until the sale was final!

The good news is...

So far the boat is passing with flying colors and around each corner welcomed surprises! Many upgrades and modifications which were done properly, are scoring high marks with my surveyor and mechanic.

As with any 1978 boat there is much to do....

Happily, most of what this boat needs is cosmetic wood work (sanding and varnish) and a good cleaning both down below and topside.

We have been able to negotiate with our boat yard for a 60 day credit on our haul out. This means, after the boat is hauled out this Thursday for our below the waterline survey, the yard will give us another 60 days to haul out again at no charge to do some of the work she needs.

This will afford me the time to get closer to what the needs really are. It lets me research which Navigation aids I really need or don't need, which below the waterline modifications are needed, and shop around for the best bottom paint solution. I must say so far, every step of this process (although more time consuming than I would like) has been good and my Broker, surveyors, and seller have been accommodating and honest.

Right now, I'm leaning towards the RAYMARINE system because it affords you the ability to use an iPad as an additional control surface. Install the main unit in the pilot house away from the weather, and place an iPad mount on the flybridge for access to all functions. If anyone has used this system... I would love some feedback. As its very new, there are almost no reviews online.

Cheers!
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Old 03-28-2013, 07:59 AM   #16
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Originally Posted by ahoyvey View Post
Hey group!

I am taking a 'SEA TRIAL' tomorrow 03/23/13 and looking forward to the experience!

If all goes well, we will have our mechanical survey next week and then finally, a haul out with full survey...

Wondering if anyone can recommend a quality CHB/Taiwan Trawler Surveyor in the Marina Del Rey CA area.

As usual, our broker "has a guy" but it would be comforting to know the survey was conducted by not only a Trawler knowledgable guy, but an independent perspective as well.

Cheers!
I have a 48 ft chb seamaster and I love my boat. Hope yours works out for you.
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Old 03-28-2013, 08:38 AM   #17
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Just an update...

The mechanical survey went really well! My trusted mechanic and marine diesel guru spent five hours combing the vessel for problems (an added bonus as the actual survey is tomorrow) as well as tested the power plant, generator, electrical, and plumbing.

On a scale of 1-10, he's given the boat an 8.5! Some suggestions were to do basic maintenance (oil change, fuel system filter replacement Etc...) as well as modify some routing of the bilge pump lines overboard.

The only "issue" he discovered was that indeed, there is some rusting on the fuel tanks! No leaking, no visible fuel contamination, but some spots on the Starboard tank which look rough.

I'm sure my complete survey will better provide me with the condition of the tanks... I guess I am wondering if the only issue with the boat is the need to replace the tanks, should I NOT proceed with the purchase?

I've done some research and I have found although its a big job, it's common and could only cost $5000.00 to do it right.

I would love any feedback, ideas, or comments.

Cheers!
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Old 03-28-2013, 09:09 AM   #18
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Sorry Pau.

"It's wise to take the recommendation of the broker for a surveyor" has got to be the worst advice ever given on any Internet forum since the beginning of time.

Yes, you must do your own due diligence. That includes getting an independent surveyor. Hopefully one that is sober. Even then it's a crap-shoot.

The combination of broker, surveyor, finance and insurance is designed to get as much money as fast as possible from the buyer. Some of it may actually get back to the seller (but that's his problem).

Just because everyone's wearing boat shoes doesn't make them your friends.
I guess we'll agree to disagree, Al.

Your advice is that, IMO, of someone who has a little information and wields that info as though you are a subject matter expert- or one who is not trusting of any opinion other than their own. People buy boats all the time, and they trust the advice of their broker, because they aren't subject matter experts...

I am in the marine business, and have been involved in hundreds of transactions totaling tens of millions of dollars, on boats from 15' to 100+ feet. Yes it is a business, and the marine professionals are in the business to make a profit- but not in the gouging way you describe. Otherwise, there would be no business.

I routinely recommend a list of service providers to clients - surveyors, financial, moorage, repair yards, and more- and don't make a penny off said referrals. Conversely, our business benefits from referrals from those same businesses, as well as referrals from retail clients- the word of mouth satisfaction that only good service can generate.

Unlike the bleak picture you paint, the reality is that marine professionals are not drunken sots waiting for the next willing victim. Of course, as in any business, there are bad eggs- perhaps you ran into one. Rest assured, the bad broker is the exception, and not the rule.
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Old 03-28-2013, 01:43 PM   #19
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I guess we'll agree to disagree, Al.

Your advice is that, IMO, of someone who has a little information and wields that info as though you are a subject matter expert- or one who is not trusting of any opinion other than their own. People buy boats all the time, and they trust the advice of their broker, because they aren't subject matter experts...

I am in the marine business, and have been involved in hundreds of transactions totaling tens of millions of dollars, on boats from 15' to 100+ feet. Yes it is a business, and the marine professionals are in the business to make a profit- but not in the gouging way you describe. Otherwise, there would be no business.

I routinely recommend a list of service providers to clients - surveyors, financial, moorage, repair yards, and more- and don't make a penny off said referrals. Conversely, our business benefits from referrals from those same businesses, as well as referrals from retail clients- the word of mouth satisfaction that only good service can generate.

Unlike the bleak picture you paint, the reality is that marine professionals are not drunken sots waiting for the next willing victim. Of course, as in any business, there are bad eggs- perhaps you ran into one. Rest assured, the bad broker is the exception, and not the rule.
I don't know what planet you are on but it sounds like a very nice place. Until we all find that place, I'll continue to advise others to do their own research, seek recommendations and hide the liquor.

Since you are a broker you should state that when giving advice. Then we'll know what it's worth.
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Old 03-28-2013, 02:24 PM   #20
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Just an update...

The mechanical survey went really well! My trusted mechanic and marine diesel guru spent five hours combing the vessel for problems (an added bonus as the actual survey is tomorrow) as well as tested the power plant, generator, electrical, and plumbing.

On a scale of 1-10, he's given the boat an 8.5! Some suggestions were to do basic maintenance (oil change, fuel system filter replacement Etc...) as well as modify some routing of the bilge pump lines overboard.

The only "issue" he discovered was that indeed, there is some rusting on the fuel tanks! No leaking, no visible fuel contamination, but some spots on the Starboard tank which look rough.

I'm sure my complete survey will better provide me with the condition of the tanks... I guess I am wondering if the only issue with the boat is the need to replace the tanks, should I NOT proceed with the purchase?

I've done some research and I have found although its a big job, it's common and could only cost $5000.00 to do it right.

I would love any feedback, ideas, or comments.

Cheers!
$5000.00 sounds low to me for a boat-yard done stock replacement of fuel tanks. Just be sure of the specs before you commit. (8 to 12 would seem more in line)

OTOH there is no earthly reason to replace the tanks as original. Plenty have done plastic or FRP replacements themselves and seem happy. They are usually small tanks manifolded together. I had stockers put back in for resale as it was a fairly new boat back. Now? NFW!

Don't be surprised if your surveyor doesn't comment on the tank condition. I remember what mine said, " They all look that way" when specifically asked about the tanks. Yes, they all look that way when they are about to dump 300 gallons of diesel into your bilge. He came highly recommended by the dealership.

Rust you can see on the top can be examined and dealt with. What will get you is the rust on the inside of the tanks in the low points and corners caused by years of water sitting under the fuel. See if you can draw out liquid from the lowest points and see what you have. Unfortunately, there are usually no inspection ports in these tanks so your best bet is to do a novena.
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