Design: Objective or Subjective?

[Peter B]

Clearly Marin is still talking planes, and not referring to the ships above. Simultaneous cross-posting sometimes causes strange relationships...

 

[Nomad Willy]

Don't get excited Peter ther'e just airplanes.

One thing I like about the combat vessel is it's chine. Don't like the looks of it at all but it would seem to me that the lift created at higher speeds would be much further aft so it could be a fairly level riding boat at speed. A large fast boat for open water needs (in my opinion) to have a hull that won't run bow high and pound excessively or won't so flat they have a tendency to bury the bow. In following seas that could be very undesirable. It looks like they designed this boat to provide lift aft of where it would normally be. I designed a boat that ran very level and that was one of the best aspects of the design. I tried and got lucky. And it's a little like this boat.

But as SomeSailor says it's not pretty. Could use a nice sheer line and many other mods to make it graceful but actually I kinda like it as it is. I like the bridge and much of the bow. The cabin is not as ugly as it could have been and the boat actually looks a bit like some Boston Whaler. But who cares ... it's a warship.

Here's my boat. Notice the sides of the hull and how the water lifts the boat at the place just ahead of the prominent wake .. right in the middle of the boat. You can see in the pic that it was very level riding.

 

[Marin]

Here's my boat. You can see in the pic that it was very level riding.

And very "not pretty."

 

[Nomad Willy]

As the name implies I designed it to be easy riding not pretty. But Marin sometimes I think you've got a bigger mouth than me. Perhaps it's not obvious but it has a much more unusual hull than the picture shows. At rest fish saw it as a trimaran and little ducklings could swim around "all three hulls" The center hull was 3" deeper than the outboard hulls (or sponsons). The Easy had incredible directional stability and only slid sideways on the face of really big waves. It was a tad difficult to make a landing as she didn't moving sideways. None of this "throw her into reverse and let the propwalk pull her up to the float".

The Easy had one frame and was made mostly out of 3/8" plywood so she was extremely light and if you put much weight aboard her performance got doggy real fast. With 25 gallons of fuel and 3 people aboard she was magic. Loaded thusly she cruised at 13 knots and once real light she made 26. And she did ride very smooth.

Built her in 73 at Masett in the Queen Charlotte Is in the school shop. I was the shop teacher. Ran her to Rupert and was going to go so to Wn but on a whim went to Juneau instead. Several years later we ran her down the coast.
She died in the back yard from ice in the bilge.

Below is a sketch of a slight variation of the Easy so you can see clearly the shape of the bottom. The crossectional shape in the dwg is about exactly the same as the Easy. And I named her the Easy Rider before the movie. She was named for something she did well ... as most boats should be named.

 

[BruceK]

Sorry, coming in a bit late here, but point of order Somesailor - rather poor choice of comparisons there as the boat in the top picture is in a way a combat vessel. That is the 'design' (note a noun, not a 'process' in this case, Eric et al - 's'ok, just yankin' chains a bit), we use as the main coastal protection vessel by our navy here in Oz. They actually used one (re-named Hammersley), in the TV production "Sea Patrol", made here in Oz, so we saw quite a lot of that design. You could however say that they are a good example of form following function. They need to be very seaworthy AND fast.

https://www.google.com.au/search?q=...WMeudiAeL64C4Cw&ved=0CEEQsAQ&biw=1280&bih=607

Are not some of those menacing patrol boats experiencing structural failures and out of action for repair? Something to do with chasing "irregular arrival" vessels operated by "people smugglers' carrying "asylum seekers", in adverse conditions. (Note I`ve been as apolitical as possible).
On a general note, I was taught "handsome is as handsome does".
On an excessively general note, I learnt things made in Italy can be drop dead gorgeous, but often don`t work. Eg, FIAT cars. FIAT= "Fix It Again Tony".

 

[Peter B]

Hmmmmm, Bruce, interesting....but Ferrari is 90% owned by Fiat. Guess my next car better be a Veyron after all.
One thing I would say..having watching the "building of the Bugatti Veyron" recently on Foxtel, although only 1.7 million dollars or so, a toy they are not, contrary to what the Arab Sheik I think Marin mentioned said, who referred to his as a toy. Anything that can accelerate to 253 mph in ~ 15 secs and more importantly, stop from that speed in 10 secs is not a toy, but a pretty impressive design. How they developed it was also an impressive example of the design process.

 

[Nomad Willy]

Bruce K,
Actually most Italian cars are small unattractive things and I think they make a lot of them. I recall hearing Fiat is/was the biggest car manufacturer in Europe. Does anybody know about that?

The only assumption that I know of re Italian cars and motorcycles is that their electrical systems are terrible. Much worse the Lucas.

And as to italian boats they seem more extreme than beautiful to me and most that we see images of in the US are megayachts w almost unlimited funds in their favor. The Riva boats are beautiful to be sure but they are at the almost unimaginable high end of the $ scale and actually are incomparable.

 

[Marin]

One thing I would say..having watching the "building of the Bugatti Veyron" recently on Foxtel, although only 1.7 million dollars or so, a toy they are not, contrary to what the Arab Sheik I think Marin mentioned said, who referred to his as a toy.

"Toy" is as much how you use it as what it is. In the case of our acquaintance in Dubai, his Veyron is every much a toy as a kid's Slinky. To his credit, he acknowledges it as such. Its performance and price is irrelevant to its use.

 

[alormaria]

The only assumption that I know of re Italian cars and motorcycles is that their electrical systems are terrible. Much worse the Lucas.

Not so. I went from a Triumph Trident to a Laverda SF to get an improvement in reliability - mostly in electrical and well frankly everything else too!

 

[brian eiland]

Sheer Beauty

...from a reply letter I sent to Soundings a number years ago

Just finished reading your article about Ray Hunt in the June issue of Soundings, I wanted to write and let you know how much I truly enjoyed the article.

You captured not only the factual history, but more importantly, some of the essence of being involved with yachts and yacht design itself….. “the measure of total understanding of the nature of a boat.”

And most importantly, you included the oft forgotten element, the sheer line. What a terribly important factor! Romantically stated, but oh so true, “it is simply her sheer … sheer beauty that is. She enters the harbor like a beautiful woman entering a room. Her sheer is the line we try to get right when we doodle boats.” So many of today’s boats lack this beauty, and correspondingly, some of the essence of yesteryear’s yachting.

PS: I was surprised as I read thru this subject thread, the lack of mentioning the 'sheer line' ?? Perhaps powerboaters don't consider this as important as sailboaters?

 

[Andy G]

I learnt things made in Italy can be drop dead gorgeous, but often don`t work. Eg, FIAT cars. FIAT= "Fix It Again Tony".

My second car was a Fiat 124S, great little two door coupe, lovely road feel, with an awesome klaxon horn.Pity about the rust though.