New LED Lighting

[Rusty]

I thought of this as I was posting in another thread. Rather than hijack that thread, I though I would go ahead and create a separate post.

We recently replaced all our inside lighting with new LED light strips. In our case, the lighting inside was 12 inch long fluorescent tubes inside recessed housings. I don't know how many other boats of our vintage (1978) use similar lighting. The lighting was so poor, a previous owner had tacked aluminum foil inside the housings in an attempt to get a bit more light.

We found LED light bars the same length as our existing fixtures from Lunasea. It took less than five minutes per fixture to make the changes. The warm white strips are really bright and make a world of difference. And of course, they use much less power.

If you are curious, or a bit bored, there is more info and a few photos on our little blog at http://blog.mvarchimedes.com/2012/10/light-power/

 

[rwidman]

LED lighting is a great improvement for those who need to conserve power. It looks like you found a great fit for your boat.

The lights you chose wouldn't have fit my boat. I did mine differently, but the LED replacement "bulbs" don't have the driver circuits yours have and I'm a little disapointed with the light output. And although they are supposed to be warm white, they are not all the same degree of warm white and it shows.

At some point, I'll have to do it over again with higher quality materials.

 

[fryedaze]

I retroed my fixtures with LED stips that can be cut to length. They dont need drivers and work well. The cost is reasonable.
Fryedaze - Lighting upgrade

 

[BruceK]

Most of the lighting on my IG was 25 watt Edison screw 12v bulbs sitting in square recesses in the saloon roof, painted white inside the recess. I got from Ebay some 3.5watt "wide spot" screw in LEDs which go straight in. 5 of them use less than one of what they replaced. I also replaced the anchor light, and some other bulbs.
Aluminum foil works as a reflective background, I used it (not on this boat), it works. Used it in some lights on the porch at home to increase output from those wretched compact fluorescents we are forced to use. BruceK

 

[boatpoker]

I converted all my existing light fixtures using cheap LED's from Ikea about 18 months ago. Much better lighting than we had before and much cheaper than any "marine" LED we could find. check out my How To

 

[rwidman]

I retroed my fixtures with LED stips that can be cut to length. They dont need drivers and work well. The cost is reasonable.
Fryedaze - Lighting upgrade

Drivers for LED lighting are not a bad thing, they are a good thing. Short explanation:

The light output of an LED (Light Emitting Diode) is proportional to the current flowing through it. More current, more light. The problem is, more current produces more heat and more heat eventually (or immediately) destroys the LED.

The conventional (and cheap) way to control the current through the LED is to use a resistor in series with the LED to drop the voltage (and reduce the current). This works fine with a fixed voltage source like you might have with a piece of electronic equipment or even a battery powered flashlight, but the "12 volt" power on a boat or car is anything but fixed.

A fully charged 12 volt boat battery should have an output voltage of about 12.6 volts, but when the engine is running and the alternator is charging the battery or when the battery charger is on, that voltage can be 14 volts or more. A partially depleted battery with no charging voltage could be outputting 12 volts or less.

To keep from destroying the LED when the battery is being charged, the designer would have to select a series resistor for 14 volts or more. That means that when the battery is not being charged, the light from the LED will be dimmer than expected. The light output will actually fluctuate with battery voltage and loads such as the water pump. Also, any high voltage spike, even for an instant can destroy the LED.

A driver circuit avoids all these problems by providing the correct, constant current to the LED(s) regardless of the supply voltage.

Given the choice, drivers are a much better solution.

 

[fryedaze]

Thanks for the info Ron. I will do a little more research on the effects of 2-3 volt changes on the LED I installed. Here is the product I used. I cut the 22" strip in half for the fixtures. It looks like there are dropping resistors on each LED. RLBN-x30X3SMD series Narrow Rigid Light Bar w/3-Chip LEDs | PCB Light Bars | Rigid LED Light Bars | LED Light Strips & Bars | Super Bright LEDs

Dave

 

[Moonstruck]

Thanks for the info Ron. I will do a little more research on the effects of 2-3 volt changes on the LED I installed. Here is the product I used. I cut the 22" strip in half for the fixtures. It looks like there are dropping resistors on each LED. RLBN-x30X3SMD series Narrow Rigid Light Bar w/3-Chip LEDs | PCB Light Bars | Rigid LED Light Bars | LED Light Strips & Bars | Super Bright LEDs

Dave

I have found superbrightleds.com to be excellent people to deal with. Their products seam to be high quality. You can easily talk with them about applications. I have switched out all lighting to LED on Moonstruck. All in all a very satisfied customer.

 

[SomeSailor]

I have swapped most of mine out as well and found it to be very nice overall. You do have to be careful with the color temperature of some LEDs though. They lean towards the higher 'blueish' end of the spectrum.

 

[Larry M]

I converted all my existing light fixtures using cheap LED's from Ikea about 18 months ago. Much better lighting than we had before and much cheaper than any "marine" LED we could find. check out my How To

We also like IKEA lights. We bought 4 - 12" light strips advertised for under the counter, got rid of the transformer and wired them direct. We have one lighting up an electrical panel. It's hard wired with a 2 amp fuse and has been on 24/7's for 5 years including when we equalize the batteries. We also bought a $10 IKEA 110 VAC halogen light. We removed the transformer, instant 12 VDC light. Recently I got rid of the G4 halogen bulb and went LED. (I did have to add some fishing sinkers in a sock to give the base some weight once the transformer was removed). Lots of options out there.
.

 

[SomeSailor]

Recently I got rid of the G4 halogen bulb and went LED. .

If you're halfway handy you can also do well at your local big box store with LEDs. They sell G4 LED replacements at Lowes for $7. A simple bit of soldering or a crimp fitting easily adapts them for 12V use in lots of cool places.

 

[rwidman]

I have found superbrightleds.com to be excellent people to deal with. Their products seam to be high quality. You can easily talk with them about applications. I have switched out all lighting to LED on Moonstruck. All in all a very satisfied customer.

superbrightleds.com sells products with and without drivers. The ones with drivers cost more but they would be worth it.

All my boat lighting is LED, but as I posted above, I'm not happy with the cheap ones I adapted for cabin lighting and I'll have to do it over at some point.

Not too long ago, I installed automatic lighting in my hanging locker. I used a 12 volt strip (no driver), a micro switch operated by the door, and to save wiring back to the DC panel, a battery pack that holds 8 AA cells.

Given the low current draw of the LED strip and the occasional use of the locker door, I figure the batteries should last a year or more. Cost was under $20.

 

[healhustler]

I know that LEDs are coming to my boat, but most of them give me the heebee jeebees. I don't mind them for outside or maintenance spaces, but inside a warm teak interior, the hardly complement the ambiance, even the so-called "warm" ones. Still, I know I gotta do it. They are just too practical to avoid.

 

[JAT]

I have found superbrightleds.com to be excellent people to deal with. Their products seam to be high quality. You can easily talk with them about applications. I have switched out all lighting to LED on Moonstruck. All in all a very satisfied customer.

I've purchased all of my LED's from them as well. Good products, good prices, and good service!!

 

[JAT]

I know that LEDs are coming to my boat, but most of them give me the heebee jeebees. I don't mind them for outside or maintenance spaces, but inside a warm teak interior, the hardly complement the ambiance, even the so-called "warm" ones. Still, I know I gotta do it. They are just too practical to avoid.

Tex, go on superbrightleds.com They have dimmable LED's, so when you want to romance your blushing bride....you can set the mood....

 

[hr2033]

As a new trawler owner, I have looked into changing over to LEDs. One site I came across provided alot of useful information to consider in migrating to LEDs. I don't know anything about this vendor, but this seems to cover the points brought up by rwidman and the impact of voltage fluctuation.

http://lib.store.yahoo.net/lib/yhst-54258538930337/IdiotsGuide.pdf

 

[Doug]

Thanks for the helpful information

 

[baldpaul]

A few months ago I replaced about 45 halogen g4 type bulbs...total cost about $110 and about 45minutes of my time. The light is warm. Not quite as bright as halogens, but certainly acceptable with much less power draw and no heat.

Direct from China factory floor

g4 - Free Shipping - DX

 

[psneeld]

As a new trawler owner, I have looked into changing over to LEDs. One site I came across provided alot of useful information to consider in migrating to LEDs. I don't know anything about this vendor, but this seems to cover the points brought up by rwidman and the impact of voltage fluctuation.

http://lib.store.yahoo.net/lib/yhst-54258538930337/IdiotsGuide.pdf

Nice link...

I wonder if it would be worthwhile to tie all the lighting together at the junction blocks in the electrical panel (easy on many boats, imposssible on others), and feed them with a stable power supply so you could use inexpensive bulbs throughout the boat?

 

[Underway]

Nice link...

I wonder if it would be worthwhile to tie all the lighting together at the junction blocks in the electrical panel (easy on many boats, imposssible on others), and feed them with a stable power supply so you could use inexpensive bulbs throughout the boat?

This is a great question/suggestion. Would be an easy retrofit on our boat. What about it LED experts...any ideas or sources for such a power supply??

 

[psneeld]

This is a great question. Would be an easy retrofit on our boat. What about it LED experts...any ideas or sources for such a power supply??

Power supplies - Parts & tools power - RadioShack.com

probably have some variable voltage ones (cost more)...if not there are tons of suppliers on the internet.

 

[Brooksie]

Nice link...

I wonder if it would be worthwhile to tie all the lighting together at the junction blocks in the electrical panel (easy on many boats, imposssible on others), and feed them with a stable power supply so you could use inexpensive bulbs throughout the boat?

You mean like a voltage regulator....
Sounds like a great idea and easy to do on either of my boats provided the regulator was not large.

 

[Codger2]

I don't mind them for outside or maintenance spaces, but inside a warm teak interior, they hardly complement the ambiance, even the so-called "warm" ones.

We share the same love of low warm lighting in our salon & state room. My wife found a couple of cheap, wood lamps (110 V) and with 40 watt bulbs they're perfect! (I'm going to switch out all the overheads to LEDs, however.)

 

[rwidman]

Note: I'm on my boat using my wimpy netbook that can't even run facebook properly so this is all off the top of my head without the research I would do if I was actually going to attempt a project.

An LED (light emitting diode) is actually a small plastic object with two wires connected to it. It will block electrical current in one direction but allow it to pass in the other direction. When it is passing current, it emits light, hence "light emitting diode". Pass more current through it and it gets brighter. Pass too much current through it and it overheats and burns out.

The cheap way to regulate the current is to, by knowing the supply voltage, insert a resistor in series with the LED to limit the current passing through it. The problems with this method are:

1) It's inefficient. Part of the power is converted to heat by the resistor, not to light.

2) If the supply voltage is expected to vary (like it would be in a car or boat), the designer has to use a resistor based on the highest voltage expected. At the lower "normal" voltage, the LED will not be as bright as it could safely be.

A more efficient method of controlling the current is with a current regulator. There is no loss in series dropping resistors, all the current is converted to light.

Could one use a voltage regulator on a boat to control the voltage to LED fiixtures using dropping resistors?

Well, yes you could. The problem is, as I already mentioned, fixtures using resistors are inefficient. More importantly, since the designer of the fixtures has designed them to survive a high voltage (perhaps 15 volts for car or boat replacement lamps), at the boat's normal voltage of 12.8 or so, the will not be as bright ss possible.

It would be easy to design a regulator to keep the maximum voltage at, say 12 volts, but much more dificult to design one to keep it higher than what is available to it Also, one wouldn't know what the designer of the fixtures used as a maximum voltage.

LED replacement lamps and fixtures with current regulators (drivers) are not that much more expensive than the ones with dropping resistors so that's really the best way to go.

BTW: Until ebay came along with its Chinese electronics vendors, Radio Shack was the worst place to shop for electronics. When I was actively in the trade, we would order stuff from our supplier befor we would consider buying something in stock from Radio Shack. For example, compare their crimp connectors with the ones from West Marine. The difference would be obvious to Ray Charles.

 

[psneeld]

Here was someone thinking along the same lines...maybe it will spark a few ideas out there..

How to Wire a House for 12 Volt LEDs | eHow.com

here's 12v to 12v converters for sensitive equipment if you want the cheapo bulbs to last longer (maybe)

12 volt to 12 volt DC/DC regulators or converters fully isolated, Marine, industrial and military grade voltage regulators (fully regulated) from 60 Watts.

 

[Underway]

rwidman,

I did a search of "buck" regulators (as mentioned in the link in a previous post) and it seems that the more sophisticated variants are capable of stepping up an input that is lower than the desired output in order to keep a stable current to the LED. Seems like the trick in using one as the current source for an entire circuit (the salon area, for example) is that available bulbs typically have either resisters or regulators built in. As you point out, the design of the bulb would have to be understood in order to make the most of the DC-DC regulator. ...could always build matching bulb arrays...

I also wondered about how to safely wire a regulator into the boat circuit. Our electrical panel has "breaker switches" for the lights in the three main living spaces.

 

[Moonstruck]

The LEDs that I got from superbriteleds.com were a little more expensive, but had buck regulators on board. They have been very satisfactory. I orderd dimmers for them, but they work very well on the dimmers for the old halogen bulbs.

 

[healhustler]

As a new trawler owner, I have looked into changing over to LEDs. One site I came across provided alot of useful information to consider in migrating to LEDs. I don't know anything about this vendor, but this seems to cover the points brought up by rwidman and the impact of voltage fluctuation.

http://lib.store.yahoo.net/lib/yhst-54258538930337/IdiotsGuide.pdf

HR: I dunno....with this being your first post, you could be the manufacturer for all we know, but the article you linked above should be standard reading for anyone wishing to understand the LED lighting game, which it sure is. My question is the same as psneeld. Would a centrally located Buck controller of sufficient size to specifically manage lines of LED's throughout the boat be practical and affordable, given the already higher cost of the so-called high quality LED's for marine use? Is there another regulator that would do the job without having the title of "Buck". Why is it that whenever I really check into things, the tab just gets depressingly bigger?

Like any new technology, the general ignorance of the LED market (I include myself in that sector) is prime territory for those wishing to steal $$$ for however long it takes for the market to wise up, and is probably why I still haven't laid-out the bucks for the change-out of all energy-sucking incandescent units in my own boat. Meanwhile, I'm checking out the cheap wood lamps that Seahorse mentioned.

 

[rwidman]

A controller for the whole boat would not be practical because as you turn lightsd on and off, the current requirements would be different.

For anyone who wants do do something just to see if it can be done or someone who takes pride in doing things differently than anyone else, sure, go ahead and try it.

Proper LED bulbs and/or fixtures with built in drivers are not that expensive to justify the cost of trying to do it differently in my opinion.

 

[Underway]

A controller for the whole boat would not be practical because as you turn lightsd on and off, the current requirements would be different.

For anyone who wants do do something just to see if it can be done or someone who takes pride in doing things differently than anyone else, sure, go ahead and try it.

Proper LED bulbs and/or fixtures with built in drivers are not that expensive to justify the cost of trying to do it differently in my opinion.

I'm one of those guys in your second paragraph...trying to understand "if it can be done" and what it would take...just for the sake of knowing. (For the record, I'm pretty weak in the electrical and electronics areas).

Anyway, I'm not clear regarding your first comment. For the sake of discussion...let's say there are four or five fixtures in the salon circuit. And let's assume that you are using LED bulbs/fixtures with no resisters and no built-in regulators. Then you buy a regulator that is sized for just that zone with those four or five (likely home made) bulbs. To your first comment above, would the current in the circuit change all that much with addition/deletion of lights on/off in the circuit given the inherent small draw of LEDs?

By the way, after reading about these buck devices, I was thinking perhaps one for each zone as I found small controllers in the $50-$100 range that seemed pretty smart and large enough to carry the current for a few LED bulbs. Each which would be wired through the associated electrical panel switch. Three "zones" for our boat.

Again, I'm one of those guys trying to understand how it could be done....or if not at all.

Thanks