EPA - May Outlaw 2-Cycle Detroit Diesels??

[Art]

I might purchase an older diesel powered boat. Have you heard about the following Detroit 2-Cycle diesel-engine cautionary tip I was recently provided by a working Captain? I look forward to learn your input and thank you for any info you may have. Art

TIP: “You may be looking at a big problem buying a boat with Detroit 2-cycle engines.

EPA is in midst of getting outlawed all of the Detroit 2 cycles. These diesels do not meet tier II or III emission standards. Currently you can run them up to 300 hours annually. After 2013, not at all.

This could force the throw away of perfectly good engines with expensive repower using something politically correct... if boat is equipped with Detroit 2-cycle engines.”

 

[FF]

Only the Peoples Democratic Republic of California might attempt something like this for pleasure boat operations..

Never heard of anything like this although you could not build a NEW boat today with the 2 stroke DD

2 Stroke are very common on large ships and Kalifornia requires ships to go off bunker and burn diesel as they come to shore.

And they have to shut down noisemakers aboard , as the states purchased coal power is cleaner as it is created out of state.

FF

 

[RickB]

Only the Peoples Democratic Republic of California might attempt something like this for pleasure boat operations..

Never heard of anything like this although you could not build a NEW boat today with the 2 stroke DD

FF

California has approved use of the 71 series engines with a "kit" of modifications that bring it into emissions standards.

EMD continues to build 2-stroke engines that meet Tier-2 standards. The 2-stroke is far from dead.

The EPA itself is a far better source for regulatory information than a "working captain."

 

[swampu]

Thought I was going to have a stroke, Just got my transmission back for my evil 6-71. Hate to have to chunk it next year.

 

[Art]

California has approved use of the 71 series engines with a "kit" of modifications that bring it into emissions standards.

EMD continues to build 2-stroke engines that meet Tier-2 standards. The 2-stroke is far from dead.

The EPA itself is a far better source for regulatory information than a "working captain."

Thought I was going to have a stroke, Just got my transmission back for my evil 6-71. Hate to have to chunk it next year. "

Let’s not get our pants in a wad now folks. I'm not saying the captain who contacted me (and may work for me) is/was correct or incorrect about potentially coming diesel engine restrictions... but I check every avenue when unusual items are brought to my attention. Including EPA info (i.e. an agency, often with sideways agendas) that I am researching... figured I'd pose the question to none other than the smartest people on the seas - Boat Captains! Thanks for any and all your input.

 

[Art]

Some more input... so far...

EPA (paraphrased): Marine engines evolution from Tier2 began in 2004, to Tier3. Smaller displacement engines are T3 now but the majority of new marine diesel engines based on cylinder displacement will be required to meet T3 January 1st 2013. Larger (whatever size the word “larger” may represent?) displacement engines are further out for compliance.

What is new with T3 is that when a repower is done with a T3 the old engine is to be destroyed so that it does not go back into service in an older boat. This was not the case with T2 repowers.

There is a provision dating back to T2 that if an older vessel is "made new", essentially doubling its value regarding before and after improvements, you are obligated to replace the engines even if they are good runners.

In California you have CARB that has been aggressively providing funds to take polluters out of service so many commercial boats have taken advantage of that program. There are also 30 air quality districts in the state that have their own standards. Perhaps they have targeted Detroit Diesels!?!?

http://www.epa.gov/oms/marine.htm#regs - Ain't research wonderful! I'd much rather go swimming!

 

[ARoss]

Hmm. With all the crazies (present company excepted) , and the earthquakes ...this is just another reason not to live in California.

 

[RickB]

In California you have CARB that has been aggressively providing funds to take polluters out of service so many commercial boats have taken advantage of that program. There are also 30 air quality districts in the state that have their own standards. Perhaps they have targeted Detroit Diesels

Or maybe not.

2002-09-06 Clean Cam Technologies Systems; Diesel Engine Re-Engineering Kits

 

[Art]

Or maybe not.

2002-09-06 Clean Cam Technologies Systems; Diesel Engine Re-Engineering Kits

Good link - TY RB!

 

[bobofthenorth]

Rick beat me to that link but I know Don Fairchild from the converted bus community. He's forgotten more about 2-stroke Detroits than most of us will ever know. He happened to be in Seattle for the working boat show the year we bought Gray Hawk and he helped me do the mechanical survey on her. He's good people.

 

[rwidman]

Hmm. With all the crazies (present company excepted) , and the earthquakes ...this is just another reason not to live in California.

If California were to fall off into the ocean, the rest of the USA would be the better for it.

 

[Art]

If California were to fall off into the ocean, the rest of the USA would be the better for it.

I can see you are open-minded.

That Said: Forget about CA govt, biz... etc. You have no idea of the beauty in CA geography. Nor Cal is a completely different animal compared to So Cal.

And, BTW... SF Bay / Delta are simply gorgeous!

To heck with EPA and all the rules that will develope in U.S. and in other nations around the globe... as we try to develop ways for keeping our living planet viable for continued livable comfort - We all will figure our way through. Secret is to enjoy this journey on the one direction life-trip we each have been afforded!

 

[bobofthenorth]

Why don't we forget the regional bashing and focus on the fact that Don Fairchild has taken an engine with a 70+ year history and made it emission compliant in the toughest jurisdiction in the world. That says a couple of things to me - 1st off Don's a pretty smart guy and 2nd there's nothing wrong with 2 stroke diesels if they have that long a history.

 

[Art]

Why don't we forget the regional bashing and focus on the fact that Don Fairchild has taken an engine with a 70+ year history and made it emission compliant in the toughest jurisdiction in the world. That says a couple of things to me - 1st off Don's a pretty smart guy and 2nd there's nothing wrong with 2 stroke diesels if they have that long a history.

Bob - Agreed... on all counts!

 

[CPseudonym]

Why don't we forget the regional bashing and focus on the fact that Don Fairchild has taken an engine with a 70+ year history and made it emission compliant in the toughest jurisdiction in the world. That says a couple of things to me - 1st off Don's a pretty smart guy and 2nd there's nothing wrong with 2 stroke diesels if they have that long a history.

Very well stated and a stunning testimony for both the engine and the men who design and re-engineer them.

 

[rwidman]

I can see you are open-minded.

My point is, California seems to think it is apart from the rest of the USA. For example, manufacturers have to build different versions of the same product for sale in CA, vs, the other 49 states. How did this happen? Why didn't the US government stop it? Suppose each state set up its own requirements and manufacturers had to build fifty different versions of a lawnmower?

Then of course, there is the fact that CA has legalized drugs that are illegal under US law. And the legal nudity, etc. The general population may be close to normal, but the people in charge are out of their minds.

I'm sure it's a beautiful place though.

 

[psneeld]

Are we done with that stupid engine thing, discussion??

I wanna wade in on this state thing...as long as we are done with the silly engine thing....

 

[Marin]

Are we done with that stupid engine thing, discussion??

I wanna wade in on this state thing...as long as we are done with the silly engine thing....

Probably needs a separate thread but speaking of engines, silly or otherwise, and EPA rulings and such, I was in Fisheries Supply yesterday getting some stuff for a boat project and there in the middle of the main aisle was a big tank of water with a pair of propane outboards mounted on it so you could run them. One was 2.5 hp or something like that and the other was a 5 hp. Brand name Lehr or something similar I think?

Anyway, I recalled an earlier thread asking about propane outboards. They're here and for sale at Fisheries (and I imagine a lot of other places, too.).

 

[psneeld]

Probably needs a separate thread but speaking of engines, silly or otherwise, and EPA rulings and such, I was in Fisheries Supply yesterday getting some stuff for a boat project and there in the middle of the main aisle was a big tank of water with a pair of propane outboards mounted on it so you could run them. One was 2.5 hp or something like that and the other was a 5 hp. Brand name Lehr or something similar I think?

Anyway, I recalled an earlier thread asking about propane outboards. They're here and for sale at Fisheries (and I imagine a lot of other places, too.).

Yeah..big push on them...we'll see if it lasts...the fuel thing i think will drive most nuts unless I'm missing something. If you are willing to handle propane yourself (fill different tanks from one another)...it may not be such a big deal unless cruising..always in the same dock area, then they may be on to something.

Now can I bash states or are we still on engines???

 

[Marin]

Refilling propane tanks doesn't seem to be much of a problem in this area. It may be in other places. The two motors in the store were plugged into a pair of backyard BBQ bottles so it would appear that one could use the common tank swap process that so many gas stations have, at least around here. There didn't appear to be any unique fittings required.

We're not in the market for a new outboard so the propane thing is neither here nor there for us. But it's an interesting idea assuming there are no unique fuel issues and that feeding the motor is no different than feeding the BBQ clipped to the rails of many boats.

One nice thing about the two small Yamahas we have, a 4hp for the Livingtston on the GB and a new 6hp as a trolling motor on the Arima, is that they have on-board fuel tanks. While we don't use the motor's tank on the Arima we always use the motor's tank on the 4hp motor on the Livingston. One less thing to deal with in the dinghy.

I assume a propane outboard would always require a separate tank, so one more thing to deal with in the dinghy.

Okay, you can light into the state-bashing now. Here, I'll get you started..... Florida sucks. It's hot, flat and always on fire. Now your turn.

 

[rwidman]

Okay, you can light into the state-bashing now. Here, I'll get you started..... Florida sucks. It's hot, flat and always on fire. Now your turn.

Well, in Florida, if you are afraid of someone, you can legally shoot and kill them.

I didn't run into this on my recent cruise and I enjoyed Florida.

 

[psneeld]

Refilling propane tanks doesn't seem to be much of a problem in this area. It may be in other places. The two motors in the store were plugged into a pair of backyard BBQ bottles so it would appear that one could use the common tank swap process that so many gas stations have, at least around here. There didn't appear to be any unique fittings required.

We're not in the market for a new outboard so the propane thing is neither here nor there for us. But it's an interesting idea assuming there are no unique fuel issues and that feeding the motor is no different than feeding the BBQ clipped to the rails of many boats.

One nice thing about the two small Yamahas we have, a 4hp for the Livingtston on the GB and a new 6hp as a trolling motor on the Arima, is that they have on-board fuel tanks. While we don't use the motor's tank on the Arima we always use the motor's tank on the 4hp motor on the Livingston. One less thing to deal with in the dinghy.

I assume a propane outboard would always require a separate tank, so one more thing to deal with in the dinghy.

Okay, you can light into the state-bashing now. Here, I'll get you started..... Florida sucks. It's hot, flat and always on fire. Now your turn.

Yeah...if Fla didn't have the weather it has in Jan-Mar (here on the East Coast to compare) and a few coral reefs and palm trees...it could be owned and operated by alligators and I would agree with you 100%...

I have spent enough time in the PNW and Alaska to know which is better for the long haul...wish there was an ICW from AK to Baja California and I would be just another PIA boater for you to complain about clogging up your waterway....

 

[Marin]

Yes, thank God there is the Pacifc off our and Oregon's coasts to beat the absolute crap out of any boater foolish enough to try to come up here from California. And the commercial crabbers help us out a lot by strewing thousands of crab pots off the coasts of both states to ensnare and cripple those who are foolish enough to try to make the run.

Of course every summer there are a few boaters who manage to make it up but by the time we're done with them what with the rain, fog, wind, volcanic ash, currents, whirlpools and whales that have learned to recognize and attack boats with California hailing ports, they are more than happy to tuck their tails between their legs and head home.

 

[Marin]

I was just in Fisheries picking up some more odds and ends for this weekend's boat project and I took another look at the two propane outboards I mentioned. What I hadn't noticed the first time is that both of them can use one of those small propane canisters for stoves, heaters, etc. There is a receptacle for one on the top of the motor. So my assumption about always needing a separate propane tank was wrong. Don't know how long the motors will run on the small canister at crusing speed throttle settings.

 

[honeybadger]

Just a side note , Everyone was saying that the 2 stroke outboard was going to be banned from use about 4 years ago, there are loads of them still out there and every O/B company except honda still makes 2 strokes and sells the heck out of them.

 

[Marin]

Yamaha no longer sells two strokes in the US as I learned two years ago when we tried to buy one. Some dealers, knowing this was coming, had stocked up on the more popular models but once this stock is gone that's it. We wanted a new Yamaha 2-stoke 8-hp for the trolling motor on our Arima but while the Seattle dealer still had a stock of five or six of them none of them were long shaft. So we bought a new 4-stroke instead.

Yamaha still makes 2-stroke outboards but not for the US market.

 

[FF]

1st off Don's a pretty smart guy and 2nd there's nothing wrong with 2 stroke diesels if they have that long a history.

However there is a price for using 1936 tech.

FUEL BURN , the DD require at least 60% load to be modestly efficient , so the engine must be sized for the boat.

An oxymoron like a "fast trawler" with 850 hp rared and operated at 5 gph will be a far better boat with modern electronic engines.

For getting home with a couple of dead cylinders , nothing seems to beet a DD 71 series.

FF

 

[Art]

Starting early tomorrow morn, I will spend most of day aboard (and at first, during high tide, diving under with flash light, fins, mask, wire brush and scraper) the fiberglass boat that has twin screw early 80's 671 diesels... with very low hours but evidently always well maintained and often well warmed up. A 65 yr old very experienced 100 ton licensed captain / boat builder / yacht surveyor plans to be with me. If bottom and underwater gear check out and we find little to no rot or soft spots in stringers, transom, decks, and superstructure then we will fire up the diesels and genset. If they work as well as stated with controls in order we will do a sea test and make ready for a soon haul out. IF - This boat comes into my possession I will post picts and provide additional comments. If I walk away – no further mention is planned. Wish me luck!

Ya jus gotta luv it! Playing with water and boats is FUN!! Heck... that’s the reason we’re all in this forum, after all, ain’t it?!?!

 

[ben2go]

Just a side note , Everyone was saying that the 2 stroke outboard was going to be banned from use about 4 years ago, there are loads of them still out there and every O/B company except honda still makes 2 strokes and sells the heck out of them.

Some areas have banned two strokes completely.It's one of the reasons I don't currently have a real boat.Four strokes are outrageously expensive,even used.

 

[2DASEA]

I can see you are open-minded.

That Said: Forget about CA govt, biz... etc. You have no idea of the beauty in CA geography. Nor Cal is a completely different animal compared to So Cal.

And, BTW... SF Bay / Delta are simply gorgeous!

To heck with EPA and all the rules that will develope in U.S. and in other nations around the globe... as we try to develop ways for keeping our living planet viable for continued livable comfort - We all will figure our way through. Secret is to enjoy this journey on the one direction life-trip we each have been afforded!

Don't mislead them. Ca is expensive, crowded, full of nuts, too hot in summer, too cold in winter, STAY AWAY!!!!