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Moonstruck 07-07-2012 11:57 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by RT Firefly (Post 92829)
Greetings,
Mr. markpierce. By any chance did your "p" go over the side?

Mr. RT, do you think we should move this conversation to the "Do you flush. . . . . " thread?

Great Laker 07-29-2012 07:51 AM

I ran across this analysis on another forum of the July 4th capsizing incident on Long Island Sound, Town of Oyster Bay. While it is technical, there is a lot of good information for boaters to consider when taking on larger than normal passenger loads. I'm not aware this article has surfaced here on the TF, so here it is.

Analysis of a capsizing

rwidman 07-29-2012 11:16 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Marin (Post 92842)
I agree with you. While I've heard all the arguments against it, and of course there is the costly bureaucracy that would have to be created to administer it, it's always seemed a bit bizzarre that a person needs training and a license to operate a plane or helicopter, training (formal or otherwise) and a license to operate a vehicle or motorcycle, a certificate to scuba dive----- yet all a person needs to operate a 60' boat is the money to buy it.

While the easy argument is that licensing won't prevent accidents, it doesn't prevent accidents in vehicles or planes either. Stupid is as stupid does.

But what training and licensing do accomplish is awareness. An idiot is going to be one no matter what, but if he or she has been exposed to the dangers of certain circumstances, or at least has been shown how to do things correctly, the odds of them making a mistake out of ignorance or following through on a dumb idea--- like putting 27 people on a 34' foot, lightweight boat with only ten or so lifejackets---- go way down.

There is no way to ensure absolute safety, and I'm not an advocate of bending over backwards trying to do so. I'm a fan of Chuck Darwin and I don't get all weepy over people doing dumb things and killing themselves. But so often these dumb things tend to kill other people who had no hand in being dumb. Like this recent incident. The owner is just fine. It's the three kids that paid the price for his ignorance or stupidity or both.

From the boating accidents that happen all over the country every year it's obvious that boats can be just as dangerous as planes, trains, and automobiles. And while one could say the number of boating accidents doesn't begin to approach the number of vehicle accidents, tell that to the parents of the three kids who drowned because a boater didn't have the sense or the training to know how many was too many for his boat.

I couldn't have put it any better. :thumb:

psneeld 07-29-2012 12:59 PM

The best and only thing that "licensing" has done in many states is provide a means for the state to take away a priviledge if it is being abused...in other words put teeth into some laws or fines that some people would just buy their way out of or be repeat offenders.

From a true safety standpoint it has done very little where I see it has been implemented...but I would love to see many more of the "arrogant" boaters who abuse their boating priviledge get it snatched away from them.:thumb:

refugio 07-29-2012 01:28 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Great Laker
I ran across this analysis on another forum of the July 4th capsizing incident on Long Island Sound...

Awesome analysis - thanks for the pointer!

Rambler 07-29-2012 02:40 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by psneeld (Post 96386)
but I would love to see many more of the "arrogant" boaters who abuse their boating priviledge get it snatched away from them.

Based on my time on the water, it's the speed boats, weekenders (me being one eons ago) that have bothered to learn much of anything before hitting the water...that being open ocean to lakes and rivers.

Take their boat away, impound it, for 60 - 90 days, or 6 months, or longer, and see if they straighten up.

I do think that the larger, and more expensive the boat, the more interest the owner/operator has in safety of their vessel and occupants.

psneeld 07-29-2012 03:49 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rambler (Post 96391)
Based on my time on the water, it's the speed boats, weekenders (me being one eons ago) that have bothered to learn much of anything before hitting the water...that being open ocean to lakes and rivers.

Take their boat away, impound it, for 60 - 90 days, or 6 months, or longer, and see if they straighten up.

I do think that the larger, and more expensive the boat, the more interest the owner/operator has in safety of their vessel and occupants.

Not really...arrogance seems to span the wealth span...as well as every other category....

Weekenders, commercials, rich, poor, locals, out of towners...sail, power, fast, slow...doesn't matter...there's always that cut of person that thinks their "stuff" don't stink and they do whatever they want, whenever they want regardless of who they inconvenience, hurt, kill....etc.

And I'm on or near the water every day, all day.

JAT 07-29-2012 05:09 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by markpierce (Post 92848)
Jat, who do you see justifying the deaths? You're making a lot of presumptions/assumptions. To begin with, we know nothing about the skipper except he has a new boat and demonstrated an instance of poor judgment resulting in deaths.

I did not see anyone actually "justifying the deaths".....but what I very often hear from people is: Oh darn, now they're going to take another "right" away from us!! I think, perhaps in my sometimes convoluted and tangental way of thinking that people often declare that licensing boat operators is a way of taking away a "right"...... But like at least one other here on this site, I have always found it amazing that there is literally ZERO requirements for any kind of safety training for boaters...and yes...any fool with the money can buy a huge boat and go for it.... Just like any fool can go out and buy a rather large RV....the day after getting their drivers license...and "WHAHOOOO"...we being off and travelin'!

True, I am making presumptions about the "captain" of that boat. Was he freakin' brain dead?? 27 souls on a 34' boat?? Come now.... Its obvious this fool had absolutely not one lick of common sense, and even less safety training or grip on reality!! Would licensing this fool have prevented this accident....maybe or even probably not....but then, there is that slim chance that in this bozo's case...that he would have manned up and told the mob.... "I can't take that many people for safety reasons!"... Or he would not have invited so many people.

I also find it hard to believe that in that part of the planet....yeah, I know I'm wrong on this one because of geography, but I would have thought there might be one boater who would have spotted the grossly overloaded boat and made a discreet call to the USCG or water cops and mumbled about a potential accident waiting to happen...and I wonder why it was that no LEO spotted the mob on the boat...unless in fact he did leave the dock in the dark....

Down here in FL..."bowriding" on any boat is illegal....but yet you still see "mummy and dada" letting the monsters do it. I'm not sure if they are hoping the crumbsnatchers will fall in and get chopped up by the props or just drown.... But then it seems the LEO's don't clamp down on it either.

You can bet...that so far as I am concerned...the "captain" of that boat should be literally "keelhauled" several times.....


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