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mvweebles 10-08-2019 09:58 AM

Anatomy of a Capsize (Steve Dashew video)
 
9-min YouTube video from SetSail/Dashew of a 50-ish foot fishing trawler. Fast forward to 4:30 to see analysis on why the trawler capsized - theory is it 'tripped' over itself as seas changed direction due to passage of cold front. Has some tips on staying upright.

https://youtu.be/8l00sJFIYkA

RT Firefly 10-08-2019 10:34 AM

Greetings,
Mr. mv. Chilling. I don't even like watching that sort of stuff. Thank the meteorologists for accurate weather predictions. BIG difference between a bad prediction and a bad decision. A word to "newbies". When in doubt, don't go out.

On occasion when I'm talking to a non boater and mention the size of our vessel, they often say "Wow. I betcha that boat can take big waves". My reply is I never want to see big waves.


We've delayed a Gulf Stream crossing a couple of times waiting on more acceptable (IMO) weather. So far, so good.

gsholz 10-08-2019 10:47 AM

It is educational. That was a seaworthy fishing boat will low center of gravity. But running downwind in breaking seas opens you up to broaching. Once the big rudder is in white water, you have no control. Slowly heading into the waves might have been a better tactic but that would get them further out vs back home. Things can go from manageable to capsized in a blink of an eye.

djmarchand 10-08-2019 11:41 AM

It was interesting to note the limit of positive stability for that boat. During an earlier wave that didn't capsize the boat, Dashew says that it had just about reached its limit. Looked to be about 45 degrees.

Contrast that with sailboats where 120-145 degrees is the norm. Makes you wonder if any trawler is safe for an extended blue water cruise.

David

Mischief Managed 10-08-2019 12:01 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by djmarchand (Post 809228)
It was interesting to note the limit of positive stability for that boat. During an earlier wave that didn't capsize the boat, Dashew says that it had just about reached its limit. Looked to be about 45 degrees.

Contrast that with sailboats where 120-145 degrees is the norm. Makes you wonder if any trawler is safe for an extended blue water cruise.

David


Dashew (FPB) Trawlers are considered quite safe for extended blue water cruising.

mvweebles 10-08-2019 12:08 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by RT Firefly (Post 809194)
Thank the meteorologists for accurate weather predictions. BIG difference between a bad prediction and a bad decision.

Yes, do all you can to stay out of dangerous seas. But for long distance cruisers, the possibility of landing in difficult situations increases. My guess is the captain/crew of that fishing trawler had decent weather information, it just got way worse than expected or there was a mechanical failure (had to be a reason the vessel where the camera was located was standing by). We are not immune to either, and not as well equipped to deal with consequences as a commercial fisherman. Something to think about.....

djmarchand 10-08-2019 01:25 PM

Dashew's FPB trawlers are safe because their angle of vanishing stability is 120 degrees or more. He considers 120 degrees to be the minimum for an offshore boat, a value that few maybe none of the typical blue water trawlers meet. For example a Nordhavn meeting CE Catagory A Ocean, only achieves a 100 degree value. Still pretty good relative to the trawler in that film.



Another reason that his boats are safe is that they can get out of the way of most storms. You need to have communications ability (to know where the storm is and is going) and the speed to get out of the way.



David

Blissboat 10-08-2019 01:49 PM

Interesting footage, but didn't that fishing trawler look unnaturally tender right from the opening frame? She never seemed to overcome a slight port list, no matter what heading she steered. Maybe it was the wind pressure on all that trawl gear aloft. Speaking of which, the weight of that gear raised her center of gravity, making her considerably more tender than she would have been with those booms rigged out.

In any case, keep seas like that far away from me!

Seevee 10-08-2019 02:19 PM

Interesting thread....


First, I have zero desire to be a blue water boater, but can certainly appreciate the planning and skills that would go into this. One would have to keep up with the weather patterns and do a good job of avoidance.



The comment about the waves switching as the front passed.... I doubt that one could recognize the actual passage quick enough to make immediate boating decisions. Even the fast ones don't more that fast, however, one can notice as the winds change slowing. However, with front passages, there are often gusts and fluctuating winds which can be challenging.

lipets 10-08-2019 08:25 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Blissboat (Post 809275)
the weight of that gear raised her center of gravity, making her considerably more tender than she would have been with those booms rigged out.


Could have lowered a lot of rigging on deck perhaps

lipets 10-08-2019 08:28 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Blissboat (Post 809275)
the weight of that gear raised her center of gravity, making her considerably more tender than she would have been with those booms rigged out.


Could have lowered a lot of rigging on deck perhaps


I was in a 35' sailboat racing on Long Island sound wind about 40knots
downwind 5-8' waves all was well surfing down the waves.


Until the tiller snapped, we broached mast in the water, cut the halyards dropping the sails, boat popped right back up.


Couldn't happen without a big heavy keel

MurrayM 10-08-2019 08:46 PM

The vessel appeared to be in trouble, which is probably why the other vessel was shadowing it. Was it a loose hatch and flooding which caused the list to port? Damaged rudder or steering system which reduced response time? Reduced power in the main engine limiting control?

Would be interesting if there was a link to an official report. I'll bet there were two or more contributing factors, besides the storm, which caused the sinking.

dhays 10-08-2019 09:33 PM

That purse seiner looks a lot like the boats that have traditionally been home based in my home port, Gig Harbor.

Iíve seen the footage before, but not with the commentary. It was informative. I too think that there was a tendency to list to port. Easily could be the wind but I wonder if their catch in the hold may have shifted as well?

Is it possible they also had trouble with their engine giving them reduced power? That would limit their rudder effectiveness with those following waves.

When I stupidly got caught out in a gale with wind and tide going opposite directions in Admiralty Inlet, I decided to not turn down wide and deal with aft quartering seas but turned upwind to accept the quartering seas on the bow. It made for a very long and rough time before I could get into a lea area, but I felt more comfortable having my rudder be more effective when it counts.

psneeld 10-08-2019 09:52 PM

I actually thought the boat was riding fine up until that last frame ..

I wasn't really paying close attention cuz it was riding pretty well ..

I mean I've been out there when it's way worse than that on some vessels....... to make any assumptions on whether or not that boat should have remained upright is only a guess .

The rolling she was doing throughout the video before she rolled over did not suggest to me she was in any sort of trouble.

78puget-trawler 10-08-2019 11:12 PM

As Dave notes, its a seiner,, a "Kodiak" seiner I believe, not a trawler. These boats don't draw much water.
A couple of things. I have seen the footage many times and have spent time in that area on larger boats, tugs with tows. Noted above, too much weight up high, put the block on deck and lash it down, lower the boom, lash it down. Any weight that can be moved down, move it. He could have ditched the seine skiff on the stern, that's a lot of weight there and he might have had quicker, less sluggish return from each roll.


Should have turned into the sea and hove to. He would have rode it out safely in all likelihood. That's pretty snotty weather for a relatively small boat running before it.

Capn_Q 10-18-2019 02:24 PM

Seiner, not a trawler. Almost happened to me in '98
 
As mentioned above, this is a purse seiner, not a trawler. In essence, it lacks a keel on which to catch the seine, making the aft hull flat and prone to being pushed around. I'm surprised the video does not point out that their deck-loaded skiff had shifted, upsetting the balance of the boat to port. This is a common heavy weather and traveling tactic to reduce drag.


I fished out of Kodiak on a number of seiners in the 90's. One, the F/V Evanick, was a 50' LeClerq. I had been a deckhand and skiffman for four years, and in '98 was set to take control as my Skipper, Carl Van Valkenberg (RIP) was having a baby with his new wife. Two weeks before I was to arrive, Carl was headed to Bristol Bay for herring. Off Foggy Cape, they experienced 8' confused seas, which also caused the skiff to shift on deck. They broached just like the boat in this video, but the nearest boat was 8 miles away. No one was recovered and the boat was scuttled by the CG. If I had not been wrapping up a college semester, I would have been aboard. That was my last year fishing, as I found a berth on Carl's best friends boat.

Overserved66 10-18-2019 05:35 PM

Don't know a lot about blue water fishing boats but it appeared that boat was having steering or power issues. Likely why it was being shadowed by the vessel that took the video. And by the comments from the men taking the video, they didn't seem too surprised when the boat broached. Through it all it seemed odd that they would continue to try to run before the wind, unless they had no choice due to some issue. It seemed like they tried a couple of times to turn upwind but couldn't seem to get it done.

Blissboat 10-18-2019 05:54 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Capn_Q (Post 812492)
As mentioned above, this is a purse seiner, not a trawler. In essence, it lacks a keel on which to catch the seine, making the aft hull flat and prone to being pushed around. I'm surprised the video does not point out that their deck-loaded skiff had shifted, upsetting the balance of the boat to port. This is a common heavy weather and traveling tactic to reduce drag.


I fished out of Kodiak on a number of seiners in the 90's. One, the F/V Evanick, was a 50' LeClerq. I had been a deckhand and skiffman for four years, and in '98 was set to take control as my Skipper, Carl Van Valkenberg (RIP) was having a baby with his new wife. Two weeks before I was to arrive, Carl was headed to Bristol Bay for herring. Off Foggy Cape, they experienced 8' confused seas, which also caused the skiff to shift on deck. They broached just like the boat in this video, but the nearest boat was 8 miles away. No one was recovered and the boat was scuttled by the CG. If I had not been wrapping up a college semester, I would have been aboard. That was my last year fishing, as I found a berth on Carl's best friends boat.

Cap'n Q shares helpful info about this boat and its practices. I gather that he thinks the weight of the skiff accounts for that slight but persistent port list. Given that the skiff was deck-loaded to reduce drag while traveling, I wonder whether the crew might have considered pushing it off the stern, both to reduce weight on deck and to perhaps act as a drogue? Admittedly, wrangling the skiff over the side in those conditions would have been dangerous. Plus, the skipper might have feared risking loss of the skiff if it flooded and sank. On the other hand, I have towed a skiff in rotten conditions, before swells that caused it to surf up and ram the transom or try to overtake the bigger boat. Half expected to lose the damn thing, but was amazed at how well it stood up, hour after hour.

One more thing I'm curious about is why, in such heavy seas and conditions of tender stability, the crew chose not to rig-out the booms. I have no idea whether a purse seiner would employ paravanes, but with them or without, it seems intuitive that reducing weight aloft might have improved things. Was there concern about a boom digging into a swell?

makobuilders 10-18-2019 10:26 PM

Perhaps itís just the skeptic in me, but Iím not convinced about the conclusions being drawn. I think of this as more of a marketing video. Thereís probably a lot that can be learned by this incident, but we really have no true information here. A copy of the detailed CG investigation would be helpful.

Art 10-19-2019 01:57 AM

Interesting, sad video. Descriptions at end are well put.

That said, I have to ask... was that boat some how carrying too heavy a load on port side? Although waves seemed to be often pushing the boat to a port list; it also seems the boat was tending to "self" list too much to port.

In confused seas like that even a relatively small maladjustment of trim weight can make a big difference to COG and therefore remaining upright.


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