Trawler Purchase Advice

[dlucas61]

Hi all,
I am currently looking at a 1978 Marine Trader Europa Sedan 40. It looks like it has been under cover most of its life. Fiberglass and bright work are in very good condition. Interior is mostly original but in good shape as well. The Ford Lemans engine shows 5600 hours but the prior owner was a diesel mechanic and supposedly rebuilt the motor. It comes with a spare motor as well.

It needs both fuel tanks replaced and the current owner got a couple of rough quote for between $25,000 to $30,000 to replace them. I feel I can replace them myself for a lot less. I am very handy and have restored boats, cars, homes and rv’s in the past and enjoy a project if I can save some money.

He is asking $25,000 for the boat. Does this seem like a reasonable price for this boat and is it worth putting the time and money into it.

I currently have a 1984 Bayliner 2850 Contessa flybridge that I have restored and am looking to upsize boats and possibly live aboard.

Any advice is appreciated. Thanks

 

[Comodave]

It If the boat is in good condition I think it is reasonable. I am planning to replace one of my fuel tanks this winter. I have to pull out an engine in order to get the tank out/in. I have a quote for a new 210 gallon 1/4” 5052 aluminum tank for about $2400 with shipping. I will spend about $1400 to buy all the equipment I need to pull the engine. I plan to replace the other engine next year so the $1400 will be amortized over 2 engines. It depends on how mechanical you are. If you can do the tanks yourself then I think the price is ok if the boat is in good condition. Good luck. Oh, BTW, welcome aboard.

 

[alormaria]

Sounds like a good investment to me. There are many options for fuel tank replacement from signing checks to sawing them to pieces yourself. Don't let me know where this boat is located or I may end up buying it myself!

 

[Comodave]

How big are the tanks and where are they located? It sounds like it is a single engine so tank replacement may be easier.

 

[rgano]

Am I reading right, this is a single engine boat with a spare engine thrown in?

 

[dlucas61]

Comodave response

It If the boat is in good condition I think it is reasonable. I am planning to replace one of my fuel tanks this winter. I have to pull out an engine in order to get the tank out/in. I have a quote for a new 210 gallon 1/4” 5052 aluminum tank for about $2400 with shipping. I will spend about $1400 to buy all the equipment I need to pull the engine. I plan to replace the other engine next year so the $1400 will be amortized over 2 engines. It depends on how mechanical you are. If you can do the tanks yourself then I think the price is ok if the boat is in good condition. Good luck. Oh, BTW, welcome aboard.

Thanks for the response Comodave. I am very capable to do the work myself. The companies that quoted the replacement proposed removing the motor and generator. I think I can just move the engine over to get the new tanks installed. Good luck on your project.

 

[dlucas61]

Tanks are on each side of the engine compartment. It is a single engine.
Thanks

 

[dlucas61]

It is a single engine with a spare motor.

 

[Sailor of Fortune]

I think its a good deal for you. Plastic tanks can replace existing steel/aluminum if you so desire. I think you have a solid plan and experience to do well here. Still get pre purchase survey and engine survey..

 

[rgano]

If not already there, put a thruster i the bow. Those engines are worth half or more of the asking price, and you sound like the right guy for this boat, if it were doing the human shopping.

 

[Comodave]

I am in the process of building a crane to pick up my port engine and slide it over the top of the starboard engine for storage while I replace the tank. I usually overdo everything but in this case the engine and transmission weigh about 1350 pounds so I am going to be careful. Then next year over the winter I will do it for the starboard tank which may be more work since all the wiring is along that side.

 

[FlyWright]

With good bones, I'd jump on that, too. Sounds like a great opportunity if the work doesn't scare you off.

Does the spare engine run?

 

[Comodave]

If you buy the boat, make sure the current fuel tanks are not actively leaking. The fines for spilling diesel overboard can be staggering. If you think they may be leaking get the fuel out of it immediately.

 

[rgano]

I am in the process of building a crane to pick up my port engine and slide it over the top of the starboard engine for storage while I replace the tank. I usually overdo everything but in this case the engine and transmission weigh about 1350 pounds so I am going to be careful. Then next year over the winter I will do it for the starboard tank which may be more work since all the wiring is along that side.

Having done exactly this with a pair of Lehman 90's, two or three come-alongs and a bunch of timbers, let me suggest removing the trannies first. It turns out, as you likely know, the single biggest problem is cutting out the old tanks. It took three of us the maneuver the engines over one another and back to square one, but most of the rest of the work was a one-person effort.

 

[Comodave]

I have yet to actually see the fuel tanks. They are enclosed by insulation and I can only see in a couple of very small access hatches. But I am hoping to get the old tank out in one piece. It will depend on how they are attached and the actual measurements of the tank. If I can’t get it out without cutting it up then I will have to go with 2 smaller tanks to make up the equivalent tankage. I am not sure if taking the transmission off will make it any easier or not. It looks like we can easily lift the engine and transmission up and out pretty easily, well maybe not easily but straightforward.

 

[SoWhat]

Does the spare motor run? If so, let me know if you pass the deal up.

Sounds like you enjoy restoring boats so you are experienced enough to know what you're getting into. It's not a trivial job. I would be tempted to move the engine out and redo the whole ER. It's probably due for a complete overhaul.

Price sounds good, esp if he's willing to haggle. I don't think many buyers will touch a boat with leaky tanks.

 

[dlucas61]

Tanks are 200 gallons each and have been emptied of all fuel.

Tanks are under floor so they are going to be a challenge to get to. I was thinking about just cutting the side of the old tanks out and use them as a compartment for the new tanks. I would put padding around the inside of the old tanks and secure the new tanks inside. Of course it depends on how bad the old tanks are but if they just have minor corrosion that can be treated then why remove them completey?

 

[Comodave]

Well they will have baffles inside them to deal with. I think that it would be a mistake to do it that way as it will probably fail a survey for your insurance or if you go to sell the boat.

With a single Lehman you could cut the old tanks out and replace them with something slightly smaller and still have sufficient fuel for your fuel burn.

In a 1978 boat, the tanks are probably past a simple patching.

 

[dlucas61]

Spare motor is partially dissembled so it does not run at this time. I think the existing motor in the boat has been rebuilt so hopefully I don't have to rebuild it for a while.

There has been a survey just done on the boat by another person that was going to buy it but his financing fell through. The person didn't pay for the survey so I could buy it from the surveyor.

I talked to the surveyor and he said that the boat was in good shape and just had a couple soft spots on the exterior side wall supports which he said was typical and not a major issue. He also said the mechanicals came back good ( motors, trans, etc).

 

[dlucas61]

Good point Comodave. Want make sure the replacement passes survey and there are no insurance issues. Don't want to go to all that work and do it wrong. Was just thinking it could save some time and effort.

 

[BruceK]

Sounds like parts from the spare motor went into the installed one. Having an old Lehman stored as a parts source makes sense.
A good deal for you. Check if the raw water pump has been replaced with the ADC update pump,they can fail at the drive, without warning.

 

[Comodave]

If the surveyor was any good and that was all that was found, then it could be a decent deal. Assuming you could do the fuel tanks for around $5K based on my one tank quote of $2400. Well hope it works out the way you want it to, good luck.

 

[Redhook98]

Spare motor is partially dissembled so it does not run at this time. I think the existing motor in the boat has been rebuilt so hopefully I don't have to rebuild it for a while.

There has been a survey just done on the boat by another person that was going to buy it but his financing fell through. The person didn't pay for the survey so I could buy it from the surveyor.

I talked to the surveyor and he said that the boat was in good shape and just had a couple soft spots on the exterior side wall supports which he said was typical and not a major issue. He also said the mechanicals came back good ( motors, trans, etc).

When the previous owner of my boat bought it in 2001, it was supposed to be a fuel tank replacement and easy resto. It is a 1979 49-ft Marine Trader Pilothouse. The end result is it took many many years to complete. The five fuel tanks were all removed, in pieces. One engine rebuilt, the gen rebuilt, every major system had to be rebuilt or replaced. Keep in mind they went into this with the survey stating there was a little rot and one tank was leaking. Every single bulkhead, overhead, support structure and piece of fiber glass was eventually replaced. Above and below the main deck. At one point, the pilothouse, all decks and framework were removed and it looked like an empty shell. When I say replaced, I mean every wall was entirely removed, new one built and installed. They ONLY wall/bulkhead not replaced was the 18-inch wall next tot he rear sliding door. (It now has a plaque on it stating this.)

Mine was obviously a case of project-creep, but it is a real world example on how a nice shiny boat with just a leaking tank and a little rot in the bulkheads can get away from you. Marine Traders are infamous for the wall rot, leaking windows and rusted out tanks. Check the teak decks as well. When those go (and they will if kept in the open), it all has to be replaced. Not a job for the faint of heart. The rotting walls/bulkheads will turn into a major issue if not already so. Don't underestimate the description of a boat coming from someone looking to unload it, or a lazy surveyor.

But in saying all that, I now have an almost brand new 1979 49-ft boat that is 100%. Not a lot of those around.

Just trying to forward you a warning. Dig a little deeper. Check all this out for yourself while keeping what the surveyor said in the back of your mind. That is a great looking boat.


Oh, and it took him almost 18 years and more money than thought possible to finish it. A labor of love. When I got it in July, it was a blank canvas.

Just my 2-cents.

 

[jeffnick]

Is your fun in refurbishing or boating? Do you consider the boat an inestment? Are you worried about resale?
When I purchased my trawler the prime objective was cruising. I didn't want to buy a boat I couldn't use. The money I might lose on resale was a small price to pay for the joy that cruising offered...it was like going to a movie - I expect to have less money in my pocket when leaving the theater.


So to me, is it worth the money knowing it will be months or more before I could go cruising? No.

 

[Rick Hudson]

Owned our PT38 Europa Sedan for over a decade and wouldn't change it for anything. Here on the NW Pacific it's the only sensible shape with the rain - you can leave windows and doors open and not have the floor get wet. A tri-cabin just isn't the same.

There are only 2 potential problems - (a) you have to be able to climb the steep companionway easily (no hip/back problems) with a chart, binoculars, muffin and cup of coffee, and (b) because the main cabin is in the bow, you must be OK with lapping on the bow when at anchor in windy conditions. Ear plugs help. These may sound minor, but just sayin'.

I replaced my water tanks some years ago and it was easy. Cut the old ones into 3 pieces and wiggled them out of the floor hatches. Made a cardboard model of the 1/3 size replacement tanks BEFORE ordering, to make sure I could guide them around the various engineroom obstacles, then ordered. In your case, you may need 4 small fuel tanks in parallel per side. Not a big deal. The new USCG regulations require a different setup anyway (no bottom tank penetrations). Make sure they have inspection ports for subsequent cleaning.

Buying an older Taiwan boat, my advice is (a) try to get one after 1981 when QC improved considerably, and (b) have a moisture check on the stringers, especially the ones that support the engine. If they are wet, the boat will flex in a swell and all sorts of problems (cracking, leaks, prop alignment, etc) will occur. If they are dry, the hull will still be stiff, and you have a 'keeper'. Pre-1981, make sure the surveyor does due diligence on those stringers.

IMHO,
Rick

 

[chelonia]

Upper deck

I have several marine trader owner friends that have had to replace the fly bridge deck because they got spongey. Check that out.

Bob Smith (dececed) owner of American diesel would have told you that at 10,000 hours the ford leiman was just broken in. I suspect his son Brian would tell the same thing.

Excellent resource on Marine Traders would be MTOA Marine Trawler Owners Association a large number of members own Marine Traders. Their magazine has a large section on engineering, engines, electrical etc.

 

[Tangler]

My 40’loa Europa is for sale in the forum here and on boatdealers.ca l am not a dealer...I would look carefully for signs of water leaks and if it smells a little musty...Run away. I have repaired all leaks and damage and much more on my boat and I have also been told to expect 10,000 hours from my twin 80 Lehman’s by more than one expert .and the tanks on mine are fine.

 

[Derik]

I would get it! That's a great price if the Hull, Electrical and engine is good go for it.

I have a 1985 MT 43 Sundeck with twin Lehman 135's and my boat had a deck leak, a soft spot on the floor below the deck leak, needed a bimini top and I paid almost double what your looking at. My motors, electronics, electrical, new inverter, and solid hull made me ok with items I can fix. Your a fix it guy and your starting with a low price.

I like your layout better than the Sundeck as well and the idea of one engine is appealing.

 

[STB]

Totally out of curiosity, what does a single-engine boat of this kind normally sell for, in good condition? I am asking because I am genuinely curious and don't know.

I would have expected in the low $30ks to low $40ks. So, I would have expected a boat that needed as labor intensive repair as this one to be in the low $20ks. But, the collective wisdom of the forum is seemingly in agreement that this boat is a good deal. And, when there is agreement here among those who know -- that is to be believed.

The reason I am curious is that I have a 41' 9" Hardin Europa twin screw in very good shape, well equipped, and with recently rebuilt Perkins. There weren't many of the Hardin's Europa's made, but Hardin made good boats and my model is very similar to the Marine Trader Europa in form.

It doesn't really matter since my boat isn't for sale right now. But, as an occasional weekend and academic break adventurer, the constant rain in Florida is driving me nuts. So, I had been given some thought to cruising it to the Bahamas next summer, and then selling it an getting one back in SoCal, where the weather was reliably nice (or, maybe exploring somewhere new like Texas or the Carolinas).

After the hurricane this month, well, I might need to wait longer for that trip. And, the folks in Florida keep promising me that this year has been particularly bad weather and that next year will be better. So, the boat really isn't for sale.

My question, both about this one and mine, are really purely curiosity questions.

But, I am in the back of my head curious what my boat might be worth. And a single engine version of the same is an interesting data point.

 

[Derik]

I looked for about a year before buying my MT 43 here in San Diego. My boat has twin Lehmans but when I was looking a twin engine boat wasn't that much more than a single, and a 1978 boat wasn't that much less than a mid 1980's boat.

Here in California a very nice mid 80's 40 ft plus trawler could be had for around 70-80K.

A project like my boat with potential 50-60k

A POS with tons of issues 30-40K These are generalizations and asking prices, I realize there are many exceptions but this is what my shopping experience reflected.

I don't remember seeing a 40 plus trawler in the 20K range.