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ScottH 11-12-2017 08:28 PM

Users' Opinions On Various Makes of Engines Needed
 
Hello Everyone. I'll keep this as brief as possible.

My wife and I are shopping for a trawler in the 40 to 44 foot range. We've been boaters our whole lives, but this is a new direction.

Having reliable engines is critical. We don't have thousands of dollars to put into engine overhauls. And good fuel economy is important too.

I've heard lots of comments saying some engines are great, others are to be avoided. It hard to know which comments are accurate and which are not. We don't want to shy away from a boat that might be a great choice just because we've heard negative comments about the brand of engines that it has, when there's really nothing wrong with them.

I'd like to share the comments I've heard with you and see what you think.

Ford Lehman: Pros: Been around for years. Good, simple engines with good fuel economy, not breakdown prone, and last a long time. After-market parts readily available, and reasonably priced. Most mechanics can work on them.
Cons: None

Caterpillar: Same as Ford Lehman

Perkins: Same as Ford Lehman

Detroit: Pros: Been around for ever, After-market parts readily available. Most mechanics can fix them.
Cons: 2 cycle diesels. Run at higher revs than 4-strokes and burn a lot more fuel. More prone to breakdowns, and don't last as long.

Cummins: Pros: Been around forever. Good fuel economy. Reliable.
Cons: After-market parts not readily available. Require mechanics with specialized training to fix them. Those mechanics are not always available locally. Labor & mechanics' travel costs can make repairs much.more expensive than for other engines.

Volvo: Have heard nothing good about Volvo's. They are very prone to breakdowns, no after-market parts are available, Volvo parts are hard to get, take a long time to arrive, and are extremely expensive. And Volvo mechanics are said to be some of the most expensive out there. Breakdowns are frequent and repair costs are 'outrageous'. Saw an online survey about recommended brands for repowering boats, and 4 out of 5 respondents said Volvos were the worst possible choice you could make.

Hino:. Many Bayliner 45's have them installed. Haven't heard anything about them, good, bad or indifferent. Don't know who makes them. Sceptical of a 'no name' brand.

Also, if you have any thoughts about turbocharged engines vs naturally aspirated, I'd appreciate your comments.

And finally, any opinions on dual engines vs single engines in a trawler would be appreciated.

And there you have it. You can comment here, or shoot me an email directly at BackYardMapleVT@hotmail.com.

Thanks!

gaston 11-12-2017 08:40 PM

God bless your search for the Holy Grail may Indiana Jones be your inspiration and guide

Gordon J 11-12-2017 08:45 PM

I see too many generalizations to even begin commenting on what you’ve written, but offer some observations. I owned a truck company and bought trucks with cummins, Detroit’s and cats. Based on hard data, that is now 4-5 years old, cummins had best fuel economy of the three listed brands. I saw no differences in maintenance expenses or reliability between the brands.

Only Volvo I have had was on my last boat, which I owned for ten years. Never had.a.single.problem. Not one. So I can’t speak to parts availability or expense.

AusCan 11-12-2017 09:21 PM

The best engine is one thats been used often and maintained well.

The brand is much less important. They all made good engines, although every brand had some models that were better than others.

Seevee 11-12-2017 09:29 PM

Brands DO make a difference.

First, we cannot compare truck diesels with boat diesels.

And some have great reputations and some don't and everywhere inbetweed.

Personally, I'm a Yanmar fan. Excellent reputation, easy to get parts and service. But I would be opposed to something else provided it had a good reputation also.

Now Volvos... Based on my experience with three Volvo gas engines, I'd be hard pressed to get another, even though there are a lot of good boats with them and some OEMs still putting them in. The BIGGEST problem with Volvo is service. You can't call the factory, or a good rep, so you only have to rely on the local dealer... who could be good or bad.

The other ones look ok for the most part, but I don't have direct experience with them.

Lou_tribal 11-12-2017 09:32 PM

Don't forget Acadia engines, the best most exotic rarest most reliable engines, and if you can find one, I will owe you a 6 pack :)

L

Nomad Willy 11-12-2017 09:36 PM

See Vee,
Where do you think “marine engines” come from?

I have a tractor/generator engine in my boat. Ten years of buying oil filters. That’s it. Mitsubishi S4L2. It was marineized by a very reputable company that have been marinizing engines (mostly Isuzu) since the 60’s. They usually don’t do pleasureboat business.

gaston 11-12-2017 09:38 PM

Hino:. Many Bayliner 45's have them installed. Haven't heard anything about them, good, bad or indifferent. Don't know who makes them. Sceptical of a 'no name' brand.


HINO A "NO NAME" ?????????????????




This may turn into a Ford V GM thing

Donsan 11-12-2017 09:48 PM

Keep in mind the Lehmanís and Perkins and even DDs are going to be found on fairly old boats as are many of the Cats and they can no longer be obtained in new boats. They are not common rail or electronically controlled to meet EPA requirements as are modern engines.

You donít mention the type of cruising you do but if blue water is involved, you might want a continuous duty engine such as a Lugger or John Deere. Several boaters would have them at the top of their list.

Nomad Willy 11-12-2017 10:05 PM

Gaston,
Hino is a Ford truck product.
Don’t know who marineized then. Perhaps the company is named Hino.

lMO who marineizes an engine is as important as the engine.

gaston 11-12-2017 10:12 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nomad Willy (Post 609356)
Gaston,
Hino is a Ford truck product.
Donít know who marineized then. Perhaps the company is named Hino.

lMO who marineizes an engine is as important as the engine.






Isuzu Motors Limited.not Ford

twistedtree 11-12-2017 10:33 PM

I think you are mis categorizing a number of things.

The need for specialized tools and training is true for electronically controlled engines and is not brand specific.

When you refer to aftermarket parts, do you mean parts made by a third party vs the engine manufacturer? In my experience, you almost aways have to get the parts through a dealer, but I also don't see it as being any big deal. Prices do vary between manufacturers, but not that much with the possible exception of Volvo.

I agree with adding Lugger and Deere to the list.m you will find them in slower, continuous duty boats, not in high output fast boats.

And detroits really need to b segmented into the older screaming jimmy 2 cycles and the newer 4 cycles. A lot of bigger boats have detroit/MTU 4 cycle engines.

But really any and all of the manufacturer are good, and past maintenance is way more important than brand.

Benthic2 11-12-2017 10:35 PM

Hino has been around for a hundred years. It seperated from another company in 1946, and became a subsidiary of Toyota in 2001.

Hino's Milestones | Organization and Facts | About Us | HINO GLOBAL

RT Firefly 11-12-2017 10:45 PM

Greetings,
Welcome aboard Mr. SH. Engines huh?

https://media0.giphy.com/media/Pq31k...0.gif#68-grid1

tiltrider1 11-12-2017 11:04 PM

As was stated earlier way to much generalization. Detroit’s are 2cyl but in the right application they can be just as fuel efficient as the next engine. When you consider fuel, parts, labor a DD671 might be the most economical engine for an application unless it’s a 400+hp 671, then it might be a bomb, or it might be a perfect combination of economy and reserve power.

I could go on similarly about each of the engines mentioned above. I wouldn’t walk from any of the engine manufactures mentioned but every one of them makes an engine I would avoid.

sunchaser 11-12-2017 11:58 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Donsan (Post 609352)
Keep in mind the Lehmanís and Perkins and even DDs are going to be found on fairly old boats as are many of the Cats and they can no longer be obtained in new boats. They are not common rail or electronically controlled to meet EPA requirements as are modern engines.

You donít mention the type of cruising you do but if blue water is involved, you might want a continuous duty engine such as a Lugger or John Deere. Several boaters would have them at the top of their list.

Perkins is still in business. Parts for newer engines readily available. Marinization done by Sabre.

BandB 11-13-2017 12:02 AM

Scott H

For your own protection, please erase everything in your original post from your brain. It was dangerous generalizations and rumors and old sailor's tales from poorly informed boaters.

There are good and bad engines for every brand you mentioned. If you find a boat you like, you're not going to have the choice of ten engine brands.

You talk about "most mechanics can fix them" vs "require special training." I'd say any engine requires training and knowledge on that engine. Cummins is no more difficult to service than others. As to Volvo, someone talks about Volvo gas engines and then we hear "breakdowns are frequent." Volvo is among the most respected in Europe and of all the Volvo diesel owners I know, they've had no worse experience than any other engine and most like their Volvo's.

Hino, no name? Quite a good name actually.

Just a warning about your sources of information. If someone owns a Ford, they're probably going to tell you Chevy's are no good. We all are prejudiced. However, I would not reject a good boat with a well maintained engine based on the brand of that engine. Be careful about mechanics advice too as they like those they work on or know best.

As to turbochargers, it's going to be a matter of the vintage of the engine. Some here who don't have them will tell you how awful they are. I've never had a diesel that wasn't turbocharged and I've been happy.

Then twins vs singles, there are many threads here on it and no right answer. We couldn't possibly know what is best for you not knowing the boat or how you intend to use it.

While there are differences in engines and in marine applications of them, far more important is the condition of the engine and how it's been maintained.

AusCan 11-13-2017 12:11 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Seevee (Post 609347)
Brands DO make a difference.

First, we cannot compare truck diesels with boat diesels.

And some have great reputations and some don't and everywhere inbetween.

Personally, I'm a Yanmar fan. Excellent reputation, easy to get parts and service. But I would be opposed to something else provided it had a good reputation also.


We can't compare truck diesels to boat diesels because there aren't any boat diesels any more.

There have been a few small purpose built marine diesels in the past such as the the Volvo MD series up until 1984. (It was one of their good engines) Almost all new "marine" diesels are truck, bus, or tractor engines that have been marinized.

Yanmar tries to market their marine engines as "purpose built" and give them a different model number from the tractor engines, but they are still basically the same with a marinizing kit.

I agree that Yanmar have great parts service. That has been Volvo's downfall.

ktdtx 11-13-2017 12:18 AM

I don't think you can categorize desirability totally by name brand.
Example:
There is a world of difference between a caterpillar 3208 producing 210 hp vs one producing 435 hp wrt longevity, maintenance, etc.

A lot of difference of opinion between a 300 hp Cummins 6bt and a 300 hp Cummins 555.

Depends a lot on how used and maintained as many have said.

Conrad 11-13-2017 12:34 AM

I'll jump in with an endorsement of of Lugger. Our NT came to us later in life with a 350 HP Lugger c/w almost 11,000 hours. Purrs along and don't expect anything major until around the 20,000 hour mark. Mind you, we did a significant service at 11,000 hours.

Here in Campbell River there are a number of places where I can get it serviced, and I don't think we are unusual in that regard. It is based on a Komatsu block which also has local support.

Our previous boat had a Volvo and again we were able to get good service locally and not at outrageous prices.

BruceK 11-13-2017 12:38 AM

The OP has to start somewhere and some of the ideas expressed are, imo, not far off the mark. Based on my experience, the experiences of other boat owners I talk to, even things I read on TF.
I second comments Hino is a reputable brand.So are Perkins, but watch for the ones rebranded Volvo. Lehmans are good, but not without fault. I wonder if any engine is completely without fault. Of course maintenance is important, but it won`t turn a pigs ear into a silk purse.
Some of the responses are like those mystery received regarding the Beneteau 44. That`s before he received the apologies.
Hang in there ScottH, there is constructive help embedded.

Insequent 11-13-2017 01:30 AM

The OP is looking at a boat size that is kinda interesting. IMO below 40' and its feasible for the average Joe to run a planing hull, even if he mostly runs at trawler speeds. Above 40' and you start getting into significantly heavier boats with relatively high HP engines. Sure you can get these boats to plane but the fuel burn gets horrendous pretty fast. There are exceptions to this as well, such as newer foam-cored hulls. But in older boats I think the first decision is whether you are happy with <10kn or want high teens. If the latter, then specific engine brands, and how hard they have been pushed in terms of HP/litre, can become a factor.

Next is to find a boat that ticks the boxes in regard to layout, number of cabins etc. Then boat condition, and finally what engines does it have? Are there regular maintenance records? Personally I may well baulk at the final hurdle if it had 2 stroke diesels. Or Volvo. But again, it depends on what the engine survey indicated, and the boat price.

You can always factor in a re-power down the track once you have confirmed the boat meets your needs in all other aspects. Again, is it a good price? Know you may never recoup the cost of a re-power. And for the cost of a re-power you will get a many, many years worth of expensive Volvo parts. Still, once done you should have excellent reliability and confidence that you can rely on it for extended trips, or rare and precious holidays if you are still working. That peace of mind is almost priceless. For a boat you know you will keep for many years, its fine to go down the re-power path.

ranger42c 11-13-2017 07:32 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ScottH (Post 609330)
I've heard lots of comments saying some engines are great, others are to be avoided. It hard to know which comments are accurate and which are not.


Good that you can do research...

But forget all that for a while.... find a boat you like and that meets your basic requirements, then do research on the engine(s) in question.

There have been some "bad" Cats (the French-built bad block issue), a Volvo can be great when your Volvo tech is just around the corner, old Detroit 2-strokes can be rebuilt/repaired forever, Hino diesels are probably in a boatload of Isuzu and Toyota trucks maybe everywhere but the U.S., turbos and aftercoolers aren't all that big a deal...

And when it comes down to it, fitness for purpose -- and more importantly, the routine maintenance and service (with records) for the specific engine(s) you encounter in the boat you might buy -- are much more important than the brand/model... in most cases.

Concentrate on features you require -- space, layout, systems, etc. -- first, and worry about minor details like propulsion power after you've identified your target boat(s).

IOW, don't shop for engines with a boat attached. Instead, shop for boats... that happen to have engines.

-Chris

boathealer 11-13-2017 07:39 AM

Whichever brand has the lowest cost and easiest to find parts, and plenty of folks in your area that work on them. The lowest cost parts and labor will easily offset any small gains in better fuel efficiency, unless you plan to cruise 10,000's of hours per year.

Agree with AusCan in #4.

Specific brands don't mean much, especially as opinions on the "interwebs" are typically from people who have had only one specific incident and then attribute their singular experience to an entire line of engines.

Also ask those same mechanics in your area which engines they PREFER to work on.

FF 11-13-2017 07:46 AM

On a used boat the decades of use and maint will be more important than the brand.

And there is seldom much you can do if the PO didnt keep records.

A boat with a decade of oil sample results would show a smart owner ,that probably did service the engine, but there rare.

Nomad Willy 11-13-2017 10:25 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by AusCan (Post 609387)
We can't compare truck diesels to boat diesels because there aren't any boat diesels any more.

There have been a few small purpose built marine diesels in the past such as the the Volvo MD series up until 1984. (It was one of their good engines) Almost all new "marine" diesels are truck, bus, or tractor engines that have been marinized.

Yanmar tries to market their marine engines as "purpose built" and give them a different model number from the tractor engines, but they are still basically the same with a marinizing kit.

I agree that Yanmar have great parts service. That has been Volvo's downfall.


Very well said AusCan, Bruck K, Conrad, Twistedtree and others.
Gaston I’m pleasantly surprised to know Hino’s are Isuzus. As one of my favorites I tried to get an Isuzu for Willy but they didn’t have the right size. I preach not to overpower and I practice what I preach.

As AusCan wrote there are no marine engines. I can produce a list of engines in the 50’s that were actually marine engines. Most all of them had the flywheel on the front of the engine so the engine could be installed as low in the hull as possible. And as many were flat head gas engines very low engine heights were common.

For me I’m still where I was 12 years ago. My Mitsu has been perfect in every way so I’d get another. And I’m sure if I had bought an Isuzu I’d be just as happy. And I’ve never had to buy parts so I probably would have been just as happy w a Volvo.

Regarding rebuilding one rebuild isn’t as another. Rebuilding a DD is almost a bullet proof choice w a reputable shop. Rebuilding others can be an excellent choice if parts are still available and the basic engine design is not laced w hard to justify old technology. Yes I said that. But w my own engine I don’t know any benefits from the engine as a result of it being new. Someone said thinwall block casting is probably one. Maybe some aspect of fuel injection. Metallurgy in valves pistons or cylinder walls ... ?? However one of the reasons I bought it was for the combustion chamber starting heaters. Going to Alaska I wanted every advantage to dependable starting. I even pulled one of the heaters out and checked. It got red hot. However my Yanmar engine started very dependably. And it had no prechamber or heater.

The OP was wise making this post beyond the fact that we needed something to talk about. But what he was actually looking for he’ll be unlikely to find. Few here will mention any common faults in an engine that many have in their boats on TF. All those people would consider it badmouthing and feel attacked. As if they made the engine. Kinda the opposite of asking the dealer of brand C about brand B.

But as others have said the big takaway is that all engines are basically good and the boat and engine history is much more important than engine brand. However if one repowers that’s one history not to be worried about.
And you don’t need a dealer down the street. But the historical ability for engine people to service customers in distant places is golden. Shy away from “airfreight .. oh we don’t do that”.

Whenever someone asks me about buying old boats I tell them to give great preference to the boats w newer engines.

tadhana 11-13-2017 11:32 AM

"Cummins: Pros: Been around forever. Good fuel economy. Reliable.
Cons: After-market parts not readily available. Require mechanics with specialized training to fix them. Those mechanics are not always available locally. Labor & mechanics' travel costs can make repairs much.more expensive than for other engines."

I think these comments pertain to the Tier 3 common rail engines. Routine service including fluids and valve adjustment and aftercooler cleaning can be performed by almost any diesel mechanics and boatyard.

Finding service tech trained on the computer controlled side of the engine is indeed harder. BUT the same problem exists for any of the computer controlled Tier 3 common rail engines including Yanmar, Cat, Lugger and John Deere. It is not unique to Cummins. I ran a boatyard which was a service center for all of those engines. We had techs trained on tier 3 Deeres and Yanmars, but not on Tier 3 Cummins or Cats. We knew better than to try and work on the engines for which our techs were not trained or certified. My own boat was one of the very first Cummins common rail engines to be hit by lightning. I had no certified tech and could not lt my own technicians work. on my own engine.

DavidM 11-13-2017 11:40 AM

Let me comment in bold below:

Quote:

Originally Posted by ScottH (Post 609330)

Ford Lehman: Pros: Been around for years. Good, simple engines with good fuel economy, not breakdown prone, and last a long time. After-market parts readily available, and reasonably priced. Most mechanics can work on them. Mostly true. American Diesel is the go to source for info and parts.
Cons: None

Caterpillar: Same as Ford Lehman. The NA 3208 is really the most prevalent Cat engine seen on older trawlers. I would call it about the same as the Lehman.

Perkins: Same as Ford Lehman. The Perkins mani or multi coolers are almost unobtainable and if you can find a new one, very expensive or you have to get a new one fabricated, also expensive.

John Deer/Lugger- You missed this one. Solid, dependable, heavy block, low speed for its power. Used by commercial fishermen a lot.

Detroit: Pros: Been around for ever, After-market parts readily available. Most mechanics can fix them.
Cons: 2 cycle diesels. Run at higher revs than 4-strokes and burn a lot more fuel. More prone to breakdowns, and don't last as long. Burns no more fuel than a Perkins, Lehman or Cummins. Their long lasting hit comes from sport fishermen who run them to the pins. Run them like you would the Lehman and they will last every bit as long.

Cummins: Pros: Been around forever. Good fuel economy. Reliable.
Cons: After-market parts not readily available. Require mechanics with specialized training to fix them. Those mechanics are not always available locally. Labor & mechanics' travel costs can make repairs much.more expensive than for other engines. I beg to differ on all of the cons unless you are talking about the current QSBs. And that comment is applicable to all electronic, common rail engines.

Volvo: Have heard nothing good about Volvo's. They are very prone to breakdowns, no after-market parts are available, Volvo parts are hard to get, take a long time to arrive, and are extremely expensive. And Volvo mechanics are said to be some of the most expensive out there. Breakdowns are frequent and repair costs are 'outrageous'. Saw an online survey about recommended brands for repowering boats, and 4 out of 5 respondents said Volvos were the worst possible choice you could make.

Yanmar: You also missed this one. Generally you only see the smaller JH series Yanmars in the smaller trawlers, but it is as solid an engine as any. The bigger 4LH, 6LP and 6LY Yanmars are all turbo charged and after cooled, but no more problematic than any others of this type.

Hino:. Many Bayliner 45's have them installed. Haven't heard anything about them, good, bad or indifferent. Don't know who makes them. Sceptical of a 'no name' brand.

Also, if you have any thoughts about turbocharged engines vs naturally aspirated, I'd appreciate your comments. There have been volumes posted on this forum on this topic. In very, very summary form- turbo charged engines let you produce high power when you need it. And other than some extra maintenance, no real downside if you don't need it. But if you never need it, stay away- more money, complexity and maintenance.

And finally, any opinions on dual engines vs single engines in a trawler would be appreciated. More than volumes have been written on this topic, maybe more than on anchors. Do a search on this forum. That will give you hours of reading pleasure.

And there you have it. You can comment here, or shoot me an email directly at BackYardMapleVT@hotmail.com.

Thanks!


Airstream345 11-13-2017 11:43 AM

I'm a newbie here so I can't speak to the pros and cons of each engine manufacturer. All I can offer is my own, limited experience and opinion as we moved through the selection/elimination/purchase process

As we searched for our "perfect" boat I read what seemed like hundreds of post or blogs either praising or denouncing just about every mfg. For every example of a pro I would also find examples of cons. The only "pattern" I found was that examples seemed to be either from anecdotal failure experience or a strong opinion, sometimes hearsay but never data.

It's like the Ford vs Chevy debate - a religious discussion. I've owned both brands (and others) over the years and both work just fine when managed and maintained.

I think this decision has more to do with your specific use case than anything else. For us, we wanted something simple, DIY ready (I'm fairly handy) and economical (both in running and in maintenance).

Early on I had a preference for Lehman engines, but also looked at boats with Cats and Cummins. I preferred non-turbo and low tech in each case (we decided on a full displacement hull so didn't need extra hp). I also looked more at actual maintenance (documented and apparent) as that said a lot about how the engine was managed during what might be a 30+ year lifespan. I never disqualified an engine mfg up front but would consider it as a factor only after we like the actual boat. For example, early on, we looked at several OA MK1's. One had a Cummins, another had Lehman's and a third was re-powered with JDs (reflected in the price). All things equal I had a preference for the OA with the Lehman's because I felt as if I could perform most of the preventative maintenance and troubleshooting myself.

In the end we landed on a boat that wasn't even on our radar and the fact that it had low hour, well maintained Lehman's just helped to close the deal for us.

The one thing I highly recommend is when you find the boat, pay for a separate engine/mechanical survey. We did and it was invaluable for calibrating what we saw in apparent and documented maintenance matched up with reality. I also got a lot of free advice along with the survey.

In short, find the right boat, then evaluate the installed power plant on their own merit as they sit in the hull.

Good luck with your search

Cigatoo 11-13-2017 12:07 PM

A very important consideration is serviceability. Is there a reputable service / parts source close by. Even a ďBadĒ Engine can be a reliable power plant if you have a knowledgeable service facility/ technician to rely on. There are fixes for most problems engineered into an engine by the OEM. Itís usually just a question of having a technician with the product knowledge, experience, and access to technical service bullitans (TSBís) to resolve the problem. The damage really occurs when inexperience and ignorance comes into play.

twistedtree 11-13-2017 12:43 PM

I'd suggest first looking for boats that meet you objectives, then once you have a candidate, get the EXACT model engine and go search for it on boatdiesel.com. You will pretty quickly get a picture of what to look out for with at particular engine. Most have a wart or two. Occasionally their will be dead silence or very few posts. That's usually a really good sign.

BandB 11-13-2017 12:53 PM

I've owned:

Gas
Yamaha outboard
Mercruiser I/O
Volvo I/O
Textron (formerly Weber) Inboard

Diesel
Lugger
Cummins
VW
Mercedes
MAN
MTU
Yanmar

HP-100 hp to 2,895

Never any significant problems with the engines or getting service.

Why?
All purchased new and all maintained only by good mechanics certified in the brand.

Common rail, turbocharged, electronic, none of those things have been negatives.

However, in purchasing used you don't know so two means of protection. One is reviewing the maintenance history. The other is the engine survey including fluid analysis. Brand name is not going to protect you against a poorly maintained engine or one serviced by someone who didn't know what they were doing.

Now, your planned use for the engine is important and your planned cruising area. The last boat we purchased, which we just sold, offered Volvo IPS Pods, MAN's or CAT. We chose the MAN because they're much quieter than the CAT's. We didn't choose the pods because we were going to be doing the loop and the likelihood of finding mechanics experienced and trained on pods was much less than those with experience on straight inboards in many areas we'd be traveling.

Recently there were discussions here on Hyundai Seasall. From everything I have heard a fine engine with some significant advantages of size and weight. My concern was service in many areas. Still some concern, but just in the months since the conversations, their service network has dramatically improved.

I've also seen some RIB's using the Subaru Boxer Diesel Engines which allow a diesel where none has gone before in a small rib with only 200 pounds more weight than a comparable gas engine. Traditionally in RIB's, the weight difference has been closer to 700 pounds. Interesting and could be tempting to some. Different, but nothing unusual about the engine or parts. However, for the average boatyard it would be a strange little beast.

Every manufacturer has also had some issues over their lifetime so whatever brand it is, talk to those knowledgeable about that brand to find out what they know about that model in that year. Here's where real fans of the brand are helpful, because they also know the issues experienced best. Also, it's important to check with someone knowledgeable of the brand to know about parts availability for the model and year in question. Parts will become more difficult to find at some point in the life of every engine. This is where the advantage often goes to the engines made in the greatest quantity.

Ultimately, you don't care brand, what you care about is the one or two specific engines in a specific boat. I'll use CAT's in SF's as an example. SF people will praise them as the greatest and how well they take the abuse given by many. However, the other side is that many of them have been abused.

caltexflanc 11-13-2017 02:37 PM

I agree about putting the collection of wive's tales, dockside legend, and generalizations in the opening post through a shredder and data wiping the memory of it.

If you can't afford to have a reserve account for an engine or transmission failure, or the equivalent, then save some more money until you do. The boat will find a way of asking for it sooner or later; unless of course you win the yachtsman's lottery as I am sure some will have claimed to on here at some point.

AusCan 11-13-2017 03:02 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by caltexflanc (Post 609538)
If you can't afford to have a reserve account for an engine or transmission failure, or the equivalent, then save some more money until you do.


Good point. Especially if looking for a "bargain".
It was one of the reasons I bought a full displacement boat with a small, single engine. It can be re-powered without mortgaging the house.

Gordon J 11-13-2017 03:42 PM

I am in Vero Beach and sat next to a gentleman on the bus who told me about his 2000 American tug. He has a six cylinder Cummins, over 12,000 hours on the engine, and he has done nothing internal. That is a pretty impressive number.

sunchaser 11-13-2017 04:25 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by djmarchand (Post 609495)
Let me comment in bold below:

David, to add to your post #28 good summary:

Cat 3208s have not been made since the late 80s. The 3116 and 3126 replaced them and in turn were replaced by the C7

DD 6-71s were done by the early 90s, I had a chance to buy a refloated 48 Tolly, that during rebuild had installed the last two ever made - and had been crated up for a decade by DD.

The last year for the Lehmans was about 1988

Perkins has not made any engines with mani coolers since the early 90s. All made during the last two decades are termed Perkins Sabre.

gaston 11-13-2017 05:08 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gordon J (Post 609547)
I am in Vero Beach and sat next to a gentleman on the bus who told me about his 2000 American tug. He has a six cylinder Cummins, over 12,000 hours on the engine, and he has done nothing internal. That is a pretty impressive number.



That's only 3 years in a truck at much higher RPM

Hamrow 11-13-2017 06:55 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by gaston (Post 609567)
That's only 3 years in a truck at much higher RPM

? This truck comment has nothing to do with the thread. the guy was talking about a boat with a Cummins that has run so far almost 18 years with no internal work needed....

gaston 11-13-2017 07:03 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hamrow (Post 609595)
? This truck comment has nothing to do with the thread. the guy was talking about a boat with a Cummins that has run so far almost 18 years with no internal work needed....



Was just pointing out 12000 hours on internals is nothing to worry about sorry to upset you :angel:

sunchaser 11-13-2017 07:41 PM

Just traded in my 12 year old Suburban. It had about 1700 hours. I'm impressed with 12K hours on a boat with a Cummins. Much tougher operating parameters than a light duty truck with same engine.

But how do you put 12K in 17 years on a small boat unless commercial?

Pack Mule 11-13-2017 08:10 PM

Anybody have experience with a BMW D150 Marine Diesel ?

smitty477 11-13-2017 08:12 PM

I have owned boats with Cummins, Perkins , Lehmans,Yanmar, CATS, and Hinos. Diesel gensets in boats with Lister Petter, Westerbeke and Onan. Trucks with diesels 6.2 Suburban, 6.5 Hummer, 7.3 Ford, 6.6 Duramax and a 5.9 Cummins.
You will likely get a lot of feedback on the board about all the brands except maybe the Hino's. I ended up liking them a lot so I had 3 sets in 3 separate boats over maybe 25+ years so if you have questions about them please just ask.
- one pair of EH700 Na's (175 hp)
- one pair of EH700 TI's (220 hp)
- one pair of WO6 D TI II's (310 hp)

Nomad Willy 11-13-2017 10:36 PM

Marty,
Are you looking at a Lord Nelson?

BandB 11-13-2017 10:46 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by sunchaser (Post 609599)
Just traded in my 12 year old Suburban. It had about 1700 hours. I'm impressed with 12K hours on a boat with a Cummins. Much tougher operating parameters than a light duty truck with same engine.

But how do you put 12K in 17 years on a small boat unless commercial?

That's not hard. Only 700 hours a year.

Delta Dog 11-13-2017 10:54 PM

Beauty is in the eye of the beholder. My "beauty" is a VT555 Cummins with almost 8K hrs on it. It purrs like a kitten and pushes my boat at 8.5 to 9 knts at 1900 RPM with a 4.3 gal per hr fuel burn. There are a lot of people who would tell you the "dreaded" tripple nickel is one of those engines to stay away from, however mine has been well maintained and not abused by it's PO's. I'm also lucky in that I have a mechanic that loves the beast too. As others have said, how the motor has been treated and maintained over it's life is far more important than the brand. Bottom line, my advise would be: Find a boat you love first, then find it with a well maintained engine, then buy it.

Art 11-13-2017 11:49 PM

For even more confusion - use the search feature of TF!

Your eyes will eventually glaze over....

High Wire 11-14-2017 12:15 AM

"All generalities are false." You can read all kinds of good or bad on any engine. Who's opinion matters more? Someone who works on all different engines or someone who has owned one or two? I would listen to the mechanic that fixes the brand. Ask said mechanics about parts availability.
FWIW, I have a friend with twin Cat 3116 engines. If you read the opinions online, those engines should have been trashed at around 500-1000 hours. They are now well over 2000+ hours and 20 years old, start immediately, NO smoke at all; and use about a quart of lube oil per season; very undiesel like.:dance: The only failure was one solenoid when the boat was new and a leaking Racor cap gasket.
I have another friend with a pair of 30 YO Volvo TAMD40's. 29 years of near perfect service, then one year of agony with one engine with performance problems. The mechanics were from a highly respected local small business. Bottom line: injectors were only "cleaned" instead of "rebuilt" and did not solve the initial problem so the problem must lie elsewhere. In the end, it WAS the injectors the whole time. Not the engines fault.
And another friend with a pair of Volvo TAMD40P's that for the last 10 years, one engine consistently overheats at cruise. Everything cooling related on that engine has been replaced with new at least once. He is so disgusted, the boat rarely leaves the slip now.
You pay your money and you roll the dice.
My boat? 33 YO Perkins 6.354 NA. 4800+ hours and doing just fine.
Curse the rules that make new engines like these no longer available.

Pack Mule 11-14-2017 06:41 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nomad Willy (Post 609626)
Marty,
Are you looking at a Lord Nelson?

Eric I'm always just looking.:) There are a few out there still running the BMW d150.

Baker 11-14-2017 08:33 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by gaston (Post 609567)
That's only 3 years in a truck at much higher RPM

Assuming 50mph average....that is 600,000 miles in 3 years. I am having a hard time believing that. And they are not at higher RPMs. A truck gets up to speed and then the load decreases significantly. A boat is under continuous load. I guess you are assuming that we are going displacement speeds and not running anywhere near the design load of the engine. And I am assuming 70% power. If you run a boat(engine) at 70% it is at 70% the entire time....not just until it gets up to speed and then "coasts".

Baker 11-14-2017 08:37 AM

And folks, the very vast majority of the Cat 3116/26 "soft blocks" have been replaced or thrown away. Caterpillar is a very good company and not only did they replace them under warranty, they keep very good records. A little due diligence and you can determine if an engine in question was a soft block.


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