Another holding tank question

[Gordon B]

Hi to all,
We have a 41' Defever with 2 heads. There are two of us living aboard. How big of a waste holding tank do you recommend? Where are most of the tanks located?

Thanks

 

[rwidman]

Is there not already a holding tank or two on your boat? Are you having to have it emptied more often than you would like?

My thought is to not worry about changes unless you're having a problem.

 

[Comodave]

I would like as big a tank as will fit within reason. We have a 45 gallon holding tank in our current boat. Would like to have it bigger. We had a 46' trawler that had an 80 gallon main and an 18 gallon for the second head. It was nice not having to pump as often.

 

[FOG]

I had 2 Lectra San systems (currently for sale). One for each head and NO holding tank.
I'm planning to install the largest holding tank I can reasonably fit into my engine room bilge area. So far my search has come up with a 50 gallon tank from Ronco. I hope that will get the 2 of us through a couple of weeks before a pump out is required.

 

[OldDan1943]

I think I have a 48 gal holding tank. Even with one 'unschooled' company, with proper management, the two of us I suspect 2 weeks would be the maximum but, I never push it. I have it pumped every week. Usually the tank is about half full, maybe a bit more. Nothing says you must flush it every time. When California was having one of it famous water shortage (way way back in the 1960s) there was a saying, "If it's yellow, let it mellow. If it's brown, flush it down." It has served me well on 2 different boats.

 

[rwidman]

The not flushing it thing is OK at home but on your boat you can leave sewage in the hoses and they will begin to stink before their time.

 

[caltexflanc]

Size of tank is dependent on what water consumption the heads use per flush times how many times a day you flush. Easy to figure out ideal capacity from there.
One of the many blessings we got with our old Hatteras was a 210 gallon holding tank, and Vacuflush heads. With two of us on board full time and occasional guests, we could go a couple months. No need to flush liquids every time also saves capacity.

 

[caltexflanc]

The not flushing it thing is OK at home but on your boat you can leave sewage in the hoses and they will begin to stink before their time.

If flushed correctly there shouldn't be any sewage in the hoses.

 

[rwidman]

If flushed correctly there shouldn't be any sewage in the hoses.

Of course but I was replying to the suggestion to not flush after urinating.

 

[Dave_E]

If flushed correctly there shouldn't be any sewage in the hoses.

In a perfect world where the tank is down hill from the toilet. It would be nice if in most 32-40' boats that were reality... sadly it is not. Install the very best sanitation hose possible, it will serve you well for many, many years with no smell permeation.

Dave

 

[O C Diver]

Have an 80 gallon tank in my 45' boat. Couldn't imagine going smaller after having this kind of capacity.

Ted

 

[tiltrider1]

Two of us live on the boat. We both work 4 days a week. We have a 40 gal holding tank with two vacuflush heads. We are pumped out weekly. Never an issue in that regards, even with guests staying on board. We have gone three weeks with no issues on vacation using the mellow yellow plan. Since we are vacuflush we don’t have to worry about stinky hoses.

Everyone’s habits are different so 40 gal is not the guaranteed answer but it dose seem to be a very comfortable minumum.

 

[Sugardog]

Custom made is not out of the question, Ive done it and it fit perfect and at reasonable cost.

 

[OldDan1943]

Have an 80 gallon tank in my 45' boat. Couldn't imagine going smaller after having this kind of capacity.

Ted

80 gallons? You get pumped out once a year???

 

[OldDan1943]

As cruisers, do you make it a point to pump to sea when away from shore or do you save up until you dock?

 

[O C Diver]

80 gallons? You get pumped out once a year???

I do it when it's convenient. Beats, HAVE TO GET A PUMP OUT TODAY! !' Was in a federal park this summer where you can't dump grey water. Fortunately my boat is setup where I can divert grey water into the holding tank. We may see more places like that in the future.

As cruisers, do you make it a point to pump to sea when away from shore or do you save up until you dock?

As much of my cruising is inland waters, there would be little opportunity to do it. So, I don't at all. Where I cruise, pump out facilities are more common than fuel docks. Probably not an issue way off shore, but think it's reasonable not to do it near coastal or inland.

Ted

 

[OldDan1943]

I do it when it's convenient. Beats, HAVE TO GET A PUMP OUT TODAY! !' Was in a federal park this summer where you can't dump grey water. Fortunately my boat is setup where I can divert grey water into the holding tank. We may see more places like that in the future.



As much of my cruising is inland waters, there would be little opportunity to do it. So, I don't at all. Where I cruise, pump out facilities are more common than fuel docks. Probably not an issue way off shore, but think it's reasonable not to do it near coastal or inland.

Ted

So long as there is commercial shipping traffic, it would be very difficult to implement the gray water restriction. They tried that in the Great Lakes and it fell flat.

 

[HeadMistress]

Was in a federal park this summer where you can't dump grey water.

Only two place in the US where it's illegal to discharge gray water direcly overboard--a couple of VERY small areas, directly over reefs, in the FL Keys National Marine Sanctuary where you even have to disable your bilge pumps...and 3 or 4 closed inland lakes where a prohibition against discharge gray water that was in place even before there were any marine sanitation regs has been grandfathered into current law. Anywhere else and you were a victim of park personnel with "barney fife syndrome." Regrettably, even if you'd known that, you'd still have gone along with it because that's what people do...and how we ended up with all these draconian regulations, many of which would prove to be unenforceable if challenged. But no one ever does.

 

[CaptTom]

I had 2 Lectra San systems (currently for sale). One for each head and NO holding tank.
I'm planning to install the largest holding tank I can reasonably fit into my engine room bilge area.

Can't wait to see what you come up with. Not much room between the stringers down there. My Prairie 36 has two small (20-something gallon) tanks squeezed into places that don't appear to have been designed for them. I wonder if this boat originally came with no holding tanks!

To the OP, more is definitely better! And my recommendation, if you're putting in a macerator with overboard discharge, is to mount it above the tank and "T" into the hose to the deck pump-out fitting. That way the macerator and most of the fittings are above the "water line" of the tank. You'll thank me the first time you have to do some maintenance without being able to empty the tank, first!

 

[Gordon B]

Thanks to everyone

Thanks to everyone for the info. we currently have a 25 Gal tank and it really doesn't last a week(sucks). I will order a larger custom one.

Our current tank is located under the forward bulkhead and under part of the floor in the v berth.

Where are your tanks located and what should I look out for when installing a new tank?

Thanks again
Gordo

 

[O C Diver]

Was in a federal park this summer where you can't dump grey water.

Only two place in the US where it's illegal to discharge gray water direcly overboard--a couple of VERY small areas, directly over reefs, in the FL Keys National Marine Sanctuary where you even have to disable your bilge pumps...and 3 or 4 closed inland lakes where a prohibition against discharge gray water that was in place even before there were any marine sanitation regs has been grandfathered into current law. Anywhere else and you were a victim of park personnel with "barney fife syndrome." Regrettably, even if you'd known that, you'd still have gone along with it because that's what people do...and how we ended up with all these draconian regulations, many of which would prove to be unenforceable if challenged. But no one ever does.

Are you saying that federal parks can't regulate within the boundaries of their parks? While they can fine you
and have you arrested, they will most likely just expel you from the park without recourse.

https://www.nps.gov/isro/learn/management/superintendents-compendium.htm

Ted

 

[psneeld]

Ted, I could have missed it but I saw no gray water mentioned.

Was it in the link or other location and the link was about enforcement?

 

[HeadMistress]

And my recommendation, if you're putting in a macerator with overboard discharge, is to mount it above the tank and "T" into the hose to the deck pump-out fitting. That way the macerator and most of the fittings are above the "water line" of the tank. You'll thank me the first time you have to do some maintenance without being able to empty the tank, first!

Better yet, if you have at least 5" clearance above the tank, put the discharge fitting on the top of it with a pickup tube inside that goes to the bottom. Even better, go with TWO discharge fittings--one dedicate to the deck pumpout, the other dedicated to the overboard discharge pump...eliminating the need for any y-valve or tee.

And while I have to floor...Your best source for a tank is Ronco Plastics (no relation to the VegoMatic Ronco) Ronco Plastics marine Tanks They make TOP quality thick-walled water and waste tanks for a very reasonable price and has more than 400 shapes and sizes, over 100 of which are non-rectangular, and they install fittings in the sizes and locations specified by the customer when they make the tank.

 

[HeadMistress]

Are you saying that federal parks can't regulate within the boundaries of their parks?

They can only enforce federal law, and federal law permits the discharge of gray water. Federal law CFR Title 46, 4306 also establishes "federal pre-emption" (iow, federal law trumps state or local): Unless permitted by the Secretary under section 4305 of this title, a State or political subdivision of a State may not establish, continue in effect, or enforce a law or regulation establishing a recreational vessel or associated equipment performance or other safety standard or imposing a requirement for associated equipment (except insofar as the State or political subdivision may, in the absence of the Secretary’s disapproval, regulate the carrying or use of marine safety articles to meet uniquely hazardous conditions or circumstances within the State) that is not identical to a regulation prescribed under section 4302 of this title.

Since there's nothing uniquely hazardous about gray water, unless the EPA (feds, not state) has mandated no gray water discharge in a particular park, they can't require it even if the park is a federally mandated NDZ. But this wouldn't be the first time that someone misinterpreted "no discharge," which ONLY applies to toilet waste, to include gray water...so it wouldn't surprise me if that's what happened here.

The only exceptions are marinas operated by lessees. Those are considered private property and can make any rules they want to as long as they don't VIOLATE federal law--for instance, allow the discharge of treated toilet waste in a marina on a no-discharge lake). But if the federal park in question is run by the US Park Service, arbitrarily banning gray water violates federal law unless the EPA gave 'em permission on the grounds that gray water is "uniquely hazardous" in that particular park.

 

[foggysail]

So long as there is commercial shipping traffic, it would be very difficult to implement the gray water restriction. They tried that in the Great Lakes and it fell flat.

Do not underestimate the power of over zealous environmentalists!!!

 

[HeadMistress]

Ooops....it helps to have ALL the information...and I missed this https://www.nps.gov/isro/learn/management/superintendents-compendium.htm
when I read your question. When I decided to click on that link after I posted, I saw that there IS a "uniquely hazardous condition" in that park that justifies the gray water prohibition.

 

[HeadMistress]

So long as there is commercial shipping traffic, it would be very difficult to implement the gray water restriction. They tried that in the Great Lakes and it fell flat.

Only when applied to recreational vessels. Commercial vessels are required to hold gray water--and also BILGE water--inside US waters because was the source of invasive species--zebra mussels, Asian carp etc--that are causing major problems for both Canada and the US.

 

[foggysail]

Was in a federal park this summer where you can't dump grey water.

Only two place in the US where it's illegal to discharge gray water direcly overboard--a couple of VERY small areas, directly over reefs, in the FL Keys National Marine Sanctuary where you even have to disable your bilge pumps...and 3 or 4 closed inland lakes where a prohibition against discharge gray water that was in place even before there were any marine sanitation regs has been grandfathered into current law. Anywhere else and you were a victim of park personnel with "barney fife syndrome." Regrettably, even if you'd known that, you'd still have gone along with it because that's what people do...and how we ended up with all these draconian regulations, many of which would prove to be unenforceable if challenged. But no one ever does.

Barney Fife is alive and well...........along with a ticket book!!!

§ 33-a. Sanitary facilities aboard craft on Lake George, Canandaigua Lake, Keuka Lake, Skaneateles Lake and on Greenwood Lake, Orange county.
It shall be unlawful for any owner or operator or for a marina or other business to launch, moor, dock or operate any craft, or permit such launching, mooring or operating of any craft upon Lake George, upon Canandaigua Lake, upon Keuka Lake, upon Skaneateles Lake, and upon Greenwood Lake, Orange county, their tributaries or outlets, equipped with toilets, sinks, tubs, showers, or other equipment resulting in the drainage of waste water or other sanitary facilities which in any manner discharge into the waters of the lake, its tributaries or outlet. All such toilets, sinks, tubs, showers, or other equipment resulting in the drainage of waste water, or other sanitary facilities, shall be removed or sealed or made to drain into a tank or reservoir which can be carried or pumped ashore for disposal according to the regulations of local boards of health or county and state health agencies. Failure to comply with the provisions of this section aboard craft on Lake George, Canandaigua Lake, Keuka Lake, and on Greenwood Lake, Orange county shall be a misdemeanor punishable by a fine of not to exceed one hundred dollars, or by imprisonment of not more than one year, or by both such fine and imprisonment. Failure to comply with the provisions of this section aboard craft on Skaneateles Lake shall be a misdemeanor punishable by a fine not to exceed five hundred dollars, or by imprisonment of not more than one year, or by both such fine and imprisonment.

 

[ranger58sb]

Better yet, if you have at least 5" clearance above the tank, put the discharge fitting on the top of it with a pickup tube inside that goes to the bottom. Even better, go with TWO discharge fittings--one dedicate to the deck pumpout, the other dedicated to the overboard discharge pump...eliminating the need for any y-valve or tee.

That's basically what I'd like. I'd gain capacity, too. Our tank is nominally 40 gallons... but reality is we have to pump out when it gets to about 26 gallons due to where the pump-out and vent fittings are on the side of the tank.

Q: if the macerator pump is below the tank level (as is ours), will it pump from a pick-up tube through the top like that? Or does the pump have to be above the tank? Or does it matter?

Q: If using a single pump-out fitting and a T for both deck pump-out and macerator discharge... what's the downside of that T fitting?

-Chris

 

[O C Diver]

Are you saying that federal parks can't regulate within the boundaries of their parks?

They can only enforce federal law, and federal law permits the discharge of gray water. Federal law CFR Title 46, 4306 also establishes "federal pre-emption" (iow, federal law trumps state or local): Unless permitted by the Secretary under section 4305 of this title, a State or political subdivision of a State may not establish, continue in effect, or enforce a law or regulation establishing a recreational vessel or associated equipment performance or other safety standard or imposing a requirement for associated equipment (except insofar as the State or political subdivision may, in the absence of the Secretary’s disapproval, regulate the carrying or use of marine safety articles to meet uniquely hazardous conditions or circumstances within the State) that is not identical to a regulation prescribed under section 4302 of this title.

Since there's nothing uniquely hazardous about gray water, unless the EPA (feds, not state) has mandated no gray water discharge in a particular park, they can't require it even if the park is a federally mandated NDZ. But this wouldn't be the first time that someone misinterpreted "no discharge," which ONLY applies to toilet waste, to include gray water...so it wouldn't surprise me if that's what happened here.

The only exceptions are marinas operated by lessees. Those are considered private property and can make any rules they want to as long as they don't VIOLATE federal law--for instance, allow the discharge of treated toilet waste in a marina on a no-discharge lake). But if the federal park in question is run by the US Park Service, arbitrarily banning gray water violates federal law unless the EPA gave 'em permission on the grounds that gray water is "uniquely hazardous" in that particular park.

This isn't a state park, it's a federal park. Your referenced article refers to state and local government. The gray water stipulations are on the permit you sigh agreeing to their regulations. No permit = no park entrance. Whether it would stand a court challenge, I have no idea. Too far to go to be thrown out. This isn't an exit off the interstate.

Ted