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Ka_sea_ta 09-03-2016 11:19 AM

Taiwan vs China build quality
 
There has been more than one discussion on the build quality of the Taiwan built boats in the early 80's... The now familiar issues with these boats have been revealed in the passage of time.

Now with many builders in Mainland China it brings to question what issues will come to light in the next 25 years. I know that OA produced some Altus branded boats in China that weren't up to their standards and had to cease production until they could bring the mainland build quality up to their standards... I also know that OA only builds their larger boats in Taiwan now...

I guess time will tell but I would think that quantity vs quality mindset may show up in the future..

twistedtree 09-03-2016 12:36 PM

I think it's a potentially serious issue. In my experience, if they already know how to do something correctly/well, they will do a great job. Beyond that, it's a total crap shoot. So manufacturing quality becomes all about the level of supervision and training exercised by whoever is commissioning the build, and by that I mean OA, or Nordhavn, or Grand Banks, or whoever. And it doesn't matter if you are building boats, electronics, or pipe fittings.

But in fairness, people aren't born knowing how to build boats or electronics or whatever. It's accumulated knowledge over a long period of time.

And on the other hand, at the risk of being politically incorrect, there is a cultural element to it as well. I definitely don't see the inherent obsession over quality that you see in Japan, for example. So all the more need for involved oversight.

FF 09-03-2016 12:40 PM

Can't wait to buy a boat from folks that sell wallboard that falls apart and powdered baby milk formula that kills.

DavidM 09-03-2016 12:47 PM

China, is probably progressing along the stand alone quality scale just like Japan, Korea and Taiwan did in the 60s through the 90s. They start out as the low cost and low quality producer. Then they see that just making something cheap won't really advance their economy, so they step up their game.


That being said, with enough supervision, a low cost, low quality country can turn out really good quality stuff such as the Apple products made in China today.


Grand Banks and Nordhavn do that and produce high quality boats. But any boat designed, built and marketed by the Chinese is probably not going to meet the same standard. Some day, probably yes. But some other country will take on the low cost producer status then.


The point of all of the foregoing BS is that production supervision makes all the difference in China today whether it is electronics or boats.


David


David

BandB 09-03-2016 01:22 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by djmarchand (Post 476050)
China, is probably progressing along the stand alone quality scale just like Japan, Korea and Taiwan did in the 60s through the 90s. They start out as the low cost and low quality producer. Then they see that just making something cheap won't really advance their economy, so they step up their game.


That being said, with enough supervision, a low cost, low quality country can turn out really good quality stuff such as the Apple products made in China today.


Grand Banks and Nordhavn do that and produce high quality boats. But any boat designed, built and marketed by the Chinese is probably not going to meet the same standard. Some day, probably yes. But some other country will take on the low cost producer status then.


The point of all of the foregoing BS is that production supervision makes all the difference in China today whether it is electronics or boats.


David


David

Grand Banks is not built in China. Built in Malaysia. (and Palm Beach in Australia).

BandB 09-03-2016 01:35 PM

There are well built boats from China and poorly built, just as Taiwan and all other boat building countries. It all comes back to a builder training and implementing an effective quality program. I think many boat companies go from one yard to another based on cost and on who has available production. Those will generally end up with issues. However, those with their own yards or a captive relationship can generally achieve quality.

If I was considering a Chinese built boat, I'd want to know what yard, what the relationship was, and how long it had been in effect. If the answer is "we changed yards last year," I'm running. If it is, "we've used one yard for 15 years and they only build for us" then I'll check further.

The extreme example is Cheoy Lee, run by the same family since the 1870's. Their current main facility was opened in 1999. The majority of their pleasurecraft are built for the US market.

CPseudonym 09-03-2016 01:42 PM

Anyone ever hear of Broward yachts?

Nation of origin is not the same as quality assurance.

Bruce B 09-03-2016 01:45 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by CPseudonym (Post 476074)
Anyone ever hear of Broward yachts?

Nation of origin is not the same as quality assurance.

Ok, I'll ask...
What happened to Broward?
I recognize the name but otherwise know nothing.
?
Bruce

tadhana 09-03-2016 01:57 PM

Early on the Asian built boats had a lot of problems, but those issues are largely resolved. Our Helmsman 38 was built in mainland China. We have lived aboard since new. Living aboard does put more wear and tear on the boat. We have had no build quality issues.

There are some American builders who build crap too. As others have said, it depends upon the builders yard. Same in the US, Europe and in China.

BandB 09-03-2016 02:15 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bruce B (Post 476075)
Ok, I'll ask...
What happened to Broward?
I recognize the name but otherwise know nothing.
?
Bruce

Went by the wayside. Had a few quality issues. More recently, look at the dismal quality of the US built Bertram's over the last 10-15 years.

Most countries have good and bad builders. It's also easy to set up a boat brand and then if you ever get an order get them built somewhere. That's a quick way to major quality problems.

You have people like OA who have built very good boats but right now don't seem to be able to decide where they are building. They took the 120 to Christensen. We see how that worked out. Now they have someone setting up a Merritt Island factory to build smaller boats for them. Who wants the first boats out of a new factory, run by new people?

BandB 09-03-2016 02:17 PM

Only country I can't name a lousy builder from is the Netherlands, and I'm sure there is one, I just don't know it.

Now the bad US builders have largely gone by the wayside. I would think Northern wins the prize as biggest disaster on the way out.

Capt.Bill11 09-03-2016 02:40 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by CPseudonym (Post 476074)
Anyone ever hear of Broward yachts?

Nation of origin is not the same as quality assurance.

Having run several Browards I have to say they are not as bad as they are made out to be.

Capt.Bill11 09-03-2016 02:41 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BandB (Post 476083)
Went by the wayside. Had a few quality issues. More recently, look at the dismal quality of the US built Bertram's over the last 10-15 years.

Most countries have good and bad builders. It's also easy to set up a boat brand and then if you ever get an order get them built somewhere. That's a quick way to major quality problems.

You have people like OA who have built very good boats but right now don't seem to be able to decide where they are building. They took the 120 to Christensen. We see how that worked out. Now they have someone setting up a Merritt Island factory to build smaller boats for them. Who wants the first boats out of a new factory, run by new people?

Did they ever sell that 120'? I lost track.

BandB 09-03-2016 02:44 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Capt.Bill11 (Post 476095)
Did they ever sell that 120'? I lost track.

I'm not sure whatever became of the 120's, if any were sold, how many were built, where they were taken to be finished, how much OA lost on the whole deal, but I believe it was quite a few millions of dollars.

Everyone lost except one man. Odd how that seems to be a repeating pattern for those who go into business with him or let him into their businesses.

CPseudonym 09-03-2016 02:56 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Capt.Bill11 (Post 476093)
Having run several Browards I have to say they are not as bad as they are made out to be.


No disagreement here. Conversely not all China builds will be crap as some would wish to believe. Point again being, nation of origin is not the same as quality assurance.

Let's try some other brands, Bayliner or Sea Ray, which is better/worse? Two brands I like btw.

Face it, perception is reality regardless of if its true or not.

Bruce B 09-03-2016 03:02 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by CPseudonym (Post 476101)
No disagreement here. Conversely not all China builds will be crap as some would wish to believe. Point again being, nation of origin is not the same as quality assurance.

Let's try some other brands, Bayliner or Sea Ray, which is better/worse? Two brands I like btw.

Face it, perception is reality regardless of if its true or not.

I have to admit, I have always considered Bayliner's to be "less than good quality". Now, I have no experience with Bayliner other than glancing at a poorly maintained runabout 30 years ago. In other words, I have no basis to back up that opinion! Same with Sea Ray... I know nothing about the boats. Sometimes I am amazed at my own bias!
Guess I will go visit the companies web sites to see what they are actually building.
Bruce

stubones99 09-03-2016 03:21 PM

It is amazing how dock talk will keep the bad taste in your mouth long after a bad experience. I had bad service on Volvo and now anything with Volvo engines is a deal-breaker for me. Samsung has recently earned a place on my shit list for their designs and lack of customer support. I have gone from ordering Samsung products exclusively, to never again... it seems that they go out of their way to NOT support their customers.

Stu

tinped 09-03-2016 03:33 PM

I also had a major problem with Volvo,and would NEVER consider another Volvo product of any kind.

Bruce B 09-03-2016 03:36 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by stubones99 (Post 476109)
It is amazing how dock talk will keep the bad taste in your mouth long after a bad experience. I had bad service on Volvo and now anything with Volvo engines is a deal-breaker for me. Samsung has recently earned a place on my shit list for their designs and lack of customer support. I have gone from ordering Samsung products exclusively, to never again... it seems that they go out of their way to NOT support their customers.

Stu

I will allow for a mistake or screw up. I'll even allow for a less than perfect service experience once or maybe twice. At some point, I am simply gone...
This is the way of the world we live in. I vote with my dollars!
Bruce

Ka_sea_ta 09-03-2016 03:43 PM

This wasn't meant to be brand specific, but rather looking 10 to 20 years down the road will the boats built in mainland China suffer maladies similar to the boats built in Taiwan in the early 80s... Or perhaps the problems that exist in the taiwan built boats are not due to construction but rather lack of maintenance by the owner(s).... I personally suspect it's a combination of the two... Some yards have worse practices and the owners of these boats have to work harder to keep the boats up....


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