Carbon Foam Batteries 1 Year Later

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Moonfish

Moonfish

Guru
Commercial Member
Joined
Nov 19, 2011
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1,586
Location
USA
Vessel Name
Traveler
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Cheoy Lee 46 LRC
Hi all -

Last year we installed new Firefly Oasis carbon foam batteries. We made a video highlighting our experience with them so far:

http://www.pacificnwboater.com/channels/marine-product-demos-installations/programs/firefly-oasis-carbon-foam-battery

In an effort to dissuade some potential comments, here are a few disclaimers. We are not electricians. We do not sell or make any money off any sales of batteries. We needed a new house bank, so we researched available technologies and decided these were what we wanted. And we think other boaters will be very interested!

If anyone would like to find out more about these batteries you'll find a lot of good info, Nigel Calder's tests and technical specs at Bruce Schwab's website:

http://www.bruceschwab.com/advanced-energy-storage-systems/firefly-energys-oasis-group-31/

If you recognize Bruce's name that's because he was a famous non-stop solo sailboat racer. He's since become an expert at what he calls "energy independence".
 
Yup, we'll be switching over to those when our lead acid golf cart batteries need to be replaced. Hopefully, in the meantime, they'll figure out how to lower the cost to manufacture them...
 
ASTM data?

Nice video
 
They have been around a very short time...from the Firefly website;
http://fireflyenergy.com/about-us/history-of-innovation/

"Firefly’s disruptive and advanced battery technology was originally developed in the R&D laboratories of CATERPILLAR, a world-renowned manufacturer of heavy equipment, with significant internal investments. CATERPILLAR got involved in lead acid batteries as they had significant failures in the normal lead acid batteries which were fitted on their heavy equipment. A Carbon Foam Grid was developed and used to make the plates of well established & proven Lead Acid Battery Chemistry. High sulphation resistance and delayed corrosion of positive plates provided 2-3 times enhancement in the performance of these Batteries.

Firefly Energy was set up in 2000 at Peoria, Illinois, being the world headquarters of CAT. Looking at the potential of this technology, a patent application was filed and a US Patent was granted in 2005 for the use of Carbon Foam in lead acid batteries. After intensive product development & tests, “Oasis” batteries were offered to several customers in small quantities in 2007.

Several Patents have since been filed and the technology is patented in several countries including Canada, Germany, Italy, United Kingdom, Russia, Japan, South Korea, China and India.

When CATERPILLAR made a decision to shed its non-core equipment businesses in 2010, Firefly International Energy Co. acquired the technology along with all the Patents, R&D, Testing and Manufacturing Equipment.

In 2011, Firefly developed and perfected the processes required to manufacture the Microcell Carbon Foam, a key ingredient in the new revolutionary battery, in-house, and at a highly competitive cost. With new investments, Firefly is manufacturing the patented Carbon Foam battery in-house since 2012 in its 53,00 Ft2 facility in Peoria which includes, among other equipment, a state of the art testing area with over 200 battery test channels.

In 2012, a license was granted to Firefly Batteries Pvt. Ltd., India, to manufacture batteries and cells using this patented technology. Since then, a large scale, world class manufacturing facility has been set-up in India and production has commenced from December, 2014."
 
Greetings,
Firefly eh???? How can they be anything but perfect...

giphy.gif
 
Looks very promising! When my Rolls are due to replace, I'll look at these closely.
Thanks for the info.
 
It is nice to have a batt set that is difficult to destroy by removing too much juice.

BUT the real need is for a batt set that can hold as much energy as a gallon of fuel, at the same weight.

About 120 years now of battery tech, still not here.
 
Interesting video. Will be interesting to see what capacities look like 5 years down the road. If the battery price drop significantly, I could see them being a game changer. From my math, doubling the quantity of the golf cart batteries gives the same duration at less than half the acquisition price. If one compares the two types of batteries in banks with the same draw down capacity, not sure the weight and size difference justifies twice the price in a displacement hull. Also replacing commonly used light fixture bulbs with LEDs would also make a significant difference and reduce generator time.

Ted
 
The real difference is that they can repeatedly be left in a partial state of charge with no ill (sulfation) effect.
 
FF said:
It is nice to have a batt set that is difficult to destroy by removing too much juice.

BUT the real need is for a batt set that can hold as much energy as a gallon of fuel, at the same weight.

About 120 years now of battery tech, still not here.
Click to expand...

Too true.
About this comes to mind the concept of a flow battery. Having a flowing rechargeable or replaceable electrolyte.

Might as well just purse a liquid fuel cell, like a SOFC which now exists one powered by gasoline at 3 times the efficiency of a gasoline engine. It works by vaporizing the fuel to gas and converting gas directly into electricity.

Only other technology than that coming to mind is nuclear power. Basically something that gets real hot converting water into steam power. And it can run for decades and be small sized. Too bad they can not make something that would be secure from terrorists cutting open to make a dirty bomb. The capability exists today to have a fridge sized nuclear plant that could run a neighborhood of homes, so easily a boat for decades without refueling.

Maybe a baseball sized reactor passively cooled, so no melt down risk possible is in a future world.

http://www.gizmag.com/small-modular-nuclear-reactors/20860/
http://www.bloomberg.com/news/artic...lear-reactors-to-tap-135-billion-power-market
 
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At $486 ea for a grp 31, I'm going to wait to see how these hold up over time. I'm due for two new 31's as mine are now tired, five or so years old and I abuse them. I'll probably just go flooded again. But I'll be watching these.

For all the testing and testimonials, there is little replacement to actual years of service experience. Some things don't last that well once the years rack up.
 
Ski in NC said:
At $486 ea for a grp 31, I'm going to wait to see how these hold up over time. I'm due for two new 31's as mine are now tired, five or so years old and I abuse them. I'll probably just go flooded again. But I'll be watching these.

For all the testing and testimonials, there is little replacement to actual years of service experience. Some things don't last that well once the years rack up.
Click to expand...

That's the problem with anything relatively new to the market. We don't know two years until many have had them for two. We won't know five years until three years later. All the testing and labs in the world don't provide us what we need from real world experiences. I'll keep following it though. Fortunately his batteries aren't much different than ours in age so we can just watch. If his is still going when ours die, then it has our attention. Still I'd need to see more experiences than just his. Still I appreciate him sharing and we will follow closely.
 
I've mentioned it before, but I really like Darren's videos. There have been several that I have found helpful, and all are interesting. Keep it up!

My house batteries won't last too much longer I imagine. They are Chinese sealed LA batteries that came with the boat. The engine start and genset start batteries have had to be replaced already. When the time comes, those carbon foam batteries will be a contender given their ability to be deeply discharged. The other option will be a bunch of cheap golf cart batteries with a fill system. As others have noted, time will tell on the carbon foam.
 
I go completely the other way on batteries and boats.
I buy them used as standard car batteries, but I do pick good ones typically less than a year old, and with at least 800 CCA. They cost me $40. I get at least 5 years from them. I use them till they self destruct, loose a cell or can no longer hold a charge. Advance Auto here sells good used batteries.

My philosophy changed after buying expensive 8D marine batteries and after 3 years seeing them gone bad.
I have a generator, I can charge batteries, I don't need huge deep discharge batteries, I can isolated all batteries keeping some in reserve. My gen has an isolated battery. I have 4 batteries total, I only need one to start any engine. I dont need to drain batteries down till they are dead, which even if marine deep discharge design, I figure that wears them out sooner..

I have one battery in one bank as a dedicated starter battery for 2 engines.
I have 2 batteries I use for house batteries in a second bank.
I can isolate-combine those 3 batteries.

Lastly, I have one dedicated gen start battery separated completely from the other 3.
I have space in my battery tray for a fourth battery to combine into the other 3, but why bother.

I also have a 3000 watt inverter and a UPS inverter for the PC. I get by ok.

If I traveled around the world, then better batteries would be good idea, but I don't. Anywhere in the USA, a good battery is easy to get.
 
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sdowney717 said:
I go completely the other way on batteries and boats.
I buy them used as standard car batteries, but I do pick good ones typically less than a year old, and with at least 800 CCA. They cost me $40. I get at least 5 years from them. I use them till they self destruct, loose a cell or can no longer hold a charge. Advance Auto here sells good used batteries.
Click to expand...

Not a bad idea and it is certainly is working well for you.
 
sdowney717 said:
I go completely the other way on batteries and boats.
I buy them used as standard car batteries, but I do pick good ones typically less than a year old, and with at least 800 CCA. They cost me $40. I get at least 5 years from them. I use them till they self destruct, loose a cell or can no longer hold a charge. Advance Auto here sells good used batteries.

My philosophy changed after buying expensive 8D marine batteries and after 3 years seeing them gone bad.
I have a generator, I can charge batteries, I don't need huge deep discharge batteries, I can isolated all batteries keeping some in reserve. My gen has an isolated battery. I have 4 batteries total, I only need one to start any engine. I dont need to drain batteries down till they are dead, which even if marine deep discharge design, I figure that wears them out sooner..

I have one battery in one bank as a dedicated starter battery for 2 engines.
I have 2 batteries I use for house batteries in a second bank.
I can isolate-combine those 3 batteries.

Lastly, I have one dedicated gen start battery separated completely from the other 3.
I have space in my battery tray for a fourth battery to combine into the other 3, but why bother.

I also have a 3000 watt inverter and a UPS inverter for the PC. I get by ok.

If I traveled around the world, then better batteries would be good idea, but I don't. Anywhere in the USA, a good battery is easy to get.
Click to expand...

You GO! sd!! :D
 
I too do a bit of battery "recycling"!! My thruster batt needs to be pretty hot for good action. When it gets weak, it goes in my pickup truck and get a new one for thruster. Truck batt then goes into the Kubota hurricane genset. By that time gennie batt is pretty weak, and that is the easiest beast to start in my fleet. Each batt I buy gets used three times!!

I do sort of the same with boat house and start batts, when too weak for the purpose, they go to the next easiest thing to start. Last time I replaced those, they had bad cells so they were done.
 
After reading about these on a marine electronics review site I thought they might make sense at $426 but with the recent price increase to $486....forgetaboutit.
Just too expensive for me.

Love the video review though!

Arch
 
I dumped my dual 8Ds for 4 31s! I acquired 4 of the sams brand AGMs. Love them! 150 ish each two years ago. 165 now. Two of the AGMs in parallel will crank my 3208s faster than two 8Ds. The sams brand is actually made by deka.
 
The carbon foam batteries look interesting, but I wonder about a few things.

AGMs and other lead acid batteries can be deeply discharged too. The life of the battery is determined by the number of amp-hours you run through it. The more deeply you cycle it, the fewer cycles you get, and it's nearly linear as long as you stay away from the extremes of the DOD range. There really is nothing magic about the 50% DOD limit that we tend to follow. You can run AGMs to 80% DOD on a regular basis and you will just get fewer cycles than at 50% DOD. Or you can run to only 20% DOD and get more cycles. But the total amount of power the battery is able to store and return over it's life is nearly constant. You get to decide whether to use it in lots of small chunks or fewer big chunks.

So my question, when looking at Carbon Foam batteries, is whether they really are any different, or if this phenomenon that has characterized lead acid batteries for the past 120 years is just being exploited for the first time.

On a boat, DOD matters, but I think the whole acceptance charge cycle of AGMs is the far bigger "problem". Our quest for giant battery banks is all about reducing generator time at anchor. If you run your generator long enough to charge the batteries the last 20%, you will incur a LOT of generator run time. And if you don't do the last 20% of charge, you lose another 20% of you banks capacity. So in practice you run your batteries between 50% and 80% DOD, so only utilize 30% of their capacity.

If our batteries could accept full charge rate right up until they are full then we would care a lot less about generator time, mostly because it could be utilized well. This is the huge attraction to LiFePo batteries.

So I think the other big question with Carbon Foam is what their charge acceptance characteristics are.

And then of course there is their long term life expectancy, cost per AH over their life, etc.
 
IMHO - A dead horse van only be beat until it is pulverized.


AH in, AH out, Charge levels, Charge rates, Charge times, Weight factors, Storage factors, Durability, Life-span, Hookups, Initial and ongoing costs, Charger capacities, Charger types... and all the rest:


With negative exceptions of some safety factors and with positive points on other safety factors... Well manufactured and maintained LA deep cycle batts are simply the most affordable and overall best lasting bunch in the crowd for house banks.
 
I agree with Twistedtree.

These batts may be a step change better than traditional LA, but then so is their price.
On the other hand, so are LiFePO4 batteries.

So the real question is, how do these compare to LiFePO4 batteries?
Lithium batts also have many advantages, long life, deep discharge (80+%), efficiency, and also low weight. They are of course a lot more expensive than LA, but are they more than Carbon foam?
 
Ben Ellison on Panbo.com recently did a long blog/discussion on the Carbon Foam batteries.
 
twistedtree said:
So my question, when looking at Carbon Foam batteries, is whether they really are any different, or if this phenomenon that has characterized lead acid batteries for the past 120 years is just being exploited for the first time.

On a boat, DOD matters, but I think the whole acceptance charge cycle of AGMs is the far bigger "problem". Our quest for giant battery banks is all about reducing generator time at anchor. If you run your generator long enough to charge the batteries the last 20%, you will incur a LOT of generator run time. And if you don't do the last 20% of charge, you lose another 20% of you banks capacity. So in practice you run your batteries between 50% and 80% DOD, so only utilize 30% of their capacity.

If our batteries could accept full charge rate right up until they are full then we would care a lot less about generator time, mostly because it could be utilized well. This is the huge attraction to LiFePo batteries.

So I think the other big question with Carbon Foam is what their charge acceptance characteristics are.

And then of course there is their long term life expectancy, cost per AH over their life, etc.
Click to expand...


I think their literature says both cycles at %DoD and acceptance rate are about like any other AGM.

The feature that seems to ring a lot of "cruisers" bells is the part about being OK to operate for long periods at partial state of charge (PSOC).

That's tied to acceptance rate, of course, but for many who are away from the dock for long periods on end -- and maybe this is the "without solar/without wind generator" crowd -- getting that last 10-20% (whatever) appears to be the hurdle.

Whether that's worth the cost premium...

???

-Chris
 
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Art said:
With negative exceptions of some safety factors and with positive points on other safety factors... Well manufactured and maintained LA deep cycle batts are simply the most affordable and overall best lasting bunch in the crowd for house banks.
Click to expand...


Building on that...

Not sure about overall best lasting, but otherwise... Yep.

Except when they're a pain in the neck because access makes service difficult.

And then sometimes those safety features are attractive, even if not completely critical. An example might be something like thruster batteries installed under the master berth... where avoiding off-gassing might be a welcome benefit.

Comes back to your point about cost... but while that can often be measured in cycles@%DoD... the value of some of the other benefits is more elusive, more personal, more situationally-dependent...

-Chris
 
"benefits is more elusive, more personal, more situationally-dependent.."

Most of the operational results can be had with a std LA battery bank and a SOC ,state of charge meter ..

An SOC meter is the first item that should be installed on any boat that will overnight with out dock power.
 
FF said:
"benefits is more elusive, more personal, more situationally-dependent.."

Most of the operational results can be had with a std LA battery bank and a SOC ,state of charge meter ..

An SOC meter is the first item that should be installed on any boat that will overnight with out dock power.
Click to expand...


Yep, when focusing mostly on "operational results."

But a SOC meter isn't going to climb down into our bilges and hump itself over stuff to get to and then manipulate battery fill caps, check levels, add distilled water if necessary...

That too could likely be fixed with a battery watering system, of course.

But I've found AGMs easier.

Everyone else's MMV.

And FWIW, given we usually don't anchor out for more than a week at a time... I haven't found not having a SOC meter to be any great loss. We have to run the genset to cook twice a day anyway, so we're going to make hot water and charge the batteries at the same time...

So any additional info a SOC meter gave me wouldn't really affect our activities.

Probably lots different for folks who stay out several weeks or even months at a time... so my point is that there's likely a threshold where a SOC meter becomes more useful... even important... but not everyone crosses that threshold.

-Chris
 
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