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-   -   Flemings in the flesh (http://www.trawlerforum.com/forums/s3/flemings-flesh-26114.html)

Hawgwash 05-12-2016 04:29 PM

Flemings in the flesh
 
Grand Yachts is hosting a bit of a Fleming fest in Sidney BC this weekend. There are about a dozen here now at Port Sidney Marina.

ranger42c 05-12-2016 04:33 PM

We usually have about 20-30 of 'em in sight at our marina. The dealer is next door, and he also leases 13 slips at our place. :)


-Chris

rochepoint 05-12-2016 05:41 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hawgwash (Post 441750)
Grand Yachts is hosting a bit of a Fleming fest in Sidney BC this weekend. There are about a dozen here now at Port Sidney Marina.

Rumour from our resident club Fleming owner says there should be 31 showing up, should up the property value at Port of Sidney.....:thumb:

Hawgwash 05-12-2016 06:08 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by rochepoint (Post 441774)
Rumour from our resident club Fleming owner says there should be 31 showing up

Yes, I spoke with two arrivals today and they said "around 30". Both are/were 55 owners moving to 63s. Drool.

sunchaser 05-12-2016 07:11 PM

The first Nordhavn CP59 is hitting the US shores in a few weeks. Check it out on Nordhavn's website. Fleming should be worried with their now decades old designs and no ER to speak of in the 55. A side by side of the CP59 with the latest model, F58, will prove most interesting.

CPseudonym 05-12-2016 08:29 PM

I agree wholeheartedly sun and it's even more interesting considering the internet naysayers who where predicting a N flop. The YouTube video I was emailed a week or so ago showed a beautiful 20 knot boat. Once the new props are fitted.

Moonstruck 05-12-2016 08:40 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by sunchaser (Post 441807)
The first Nordhavn CP59 is hitting the US shores in a few weeks. Check it out on Nordhavn's website. Fleming should be worried with their now decades old designs and no ER to speak of in the 55. A side by side of the CP59 with the latest model, F58, will prove most interesting.

I find the arrangement of the 59CP galley/saloon area strange to say the least. Not nearly as comfortable seeming to me as the Fleming. Plus the Fleming has that wonderful pilothouse that is missing on the 59CP. Also the split aft deck lounge area and cockpit seems a little cut up. As is said, all boats are compromises. A stand up engine room is great, but maybe not a deal killer.

Edit: I do like the midship master stateroom of the 59CP. However, I like the arrangement for quick access to the staterooms on the Fleming. The Fleming also has the nice access from the pilothouse to the flying bridge. While we are on the bridge, the Fleming's bridge arrangement has it hands down.

I think that Nordhavn with do some tweeking on the floor plan, but how would they handle the pilot house problem?

sunchaser 05-14-2016 10:00 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Moonstruck (Post 441858)
I think that Nordhavn with do some tweeking on the floor plan, but how would they handle the pilot house problem?

They and many others do not view this as a problem. Think Europa design, new Selene model or flush deck Hatteras. Many of us own non pilot house boats and enjoy those specific benefits. Why I even know some who extol the virtues of a Sabre, I couldn't agree more. But, time will tell.

To me, the issue with the very nicely crafted Fleming 55 is it lacks decent machinery space. Nordhavn and before that DeFever raised that bar in recreational vessels. My DF 48 has so much better an ER and machinery design layouts than an F55, strange to say the least.

My other favorites in this regard are the OA 55s to 64s or Outer Reef 65. The CP 59 faces some stiff completion, but not from Fleming IMHO. You Don are in one of those great competitors.

twistedtree 05-14-2016 10:41 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by sunchaser (Post 442386)
To me, the issue with the very nicely crafted Fleming 55 is it lacks decent machinery space. Nordhavn and before that DeFever raised that bar in recreational vessels. My DF 48 has so much better an ER and machinery design layouts than an F55, strange to say the least.

How much of that do you think is attributable to the Fleming's planing hull vs the Nordhavn and Defever's displacement hulls? That's what I always though made the difference - basically the below waterline shape/depth that allows for more ER space. My Grand Banks, which was a newer model with planing hull, was similarly tight on ER space like the Fleming. Although it was very well laid out and everything was accessible, it was definitely a crawl space.

Nomad Willy 05-14-2016 11:43 AM

Are the beams similar on these boats?
I suspect the Fleming is considerably narrower. The size of a boat is mostly a product of it's height, beam and length.
Also comparing a high speed boat w slow boat is mostly nonsense anyway.

One thing that can be compared is appearance and the best looking Nordy is not nearly as good looking as the ugliest Fleming. Heavy on the bias? Yup but .....

CPseudonym 05-14-2016 11:46 AM

The Fleming and the Nordhavn CP59 are an apples to apples comparison IMO. They are both planing hulls.

Tom.B 05-14-2016 03:41 PM

Fleming is our "win-the-lottery" dream boat.

BandB 05-14-2016 05:39 PM

Fleming and Nordhavn don't appeal to the same customer. Once one finds out the key differences, they like one much better than the other. This isn't like deciding between American Tug and Nordic Tug. Nor is it even like deciding KK vs. Nordhavn, although they have major differences.

It doesn't mean one is better than the other, only different. The person who likes the high sides, is happy going 8 knots, and prefers Engine Room space over living space is always going to pick Nordhavn over Fleming. On the other hand, we strongly considered Fleming at one time in our searches and we would never consider Nordhavn. Not because it's not a good boat. Just doesn't appeal to us. On the other hand we have friends who are Nordhavn fanatics and we hope one of them in particular, a member here, gets the one of his dreams next. We also have looked at his preferences and how he'd outfit one and communicated back and forth. Perfect boat for him. I would never try to talk him into a Fleming.

boatpoker 05-15-2016 08:47 AM

CP59 ... what a curious (and I think unworkable) saloon/galley arrangement.
For that kind of money I'd like a settee that at least looks comfortable to sit on.

sunchaser 05-15-2016 08:58 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BandB (Post 442488)
The person who likes the high sides, is happy going 8 knots, .

BB

You may want to look up the Nordhavn CP59 performance and specs and compare to say the newest and very nicely set up Fleming 58; that is my curiosity for purposes of this thread anyway.

CPseudonym 05-15-2016 09:25 AM

Compare also the new Hatteras 60

BandB 05-15-2016 11:11 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by sunchaser (Post 442681)
BB

You may want to look up the Nordhavn CP59 performance and specs and compare to say the newest and very nicely set up Fleming 58; that is my curiosity for purposes of this thread anyway.

Quote:

Originally Posted by CPseudonym (Post 442698)
Compare also the new Hatteras 60

First to the Hatteras. The Hatteras 60 will out perform the others by a mile. 32 knots WOT and 25+ cruising, but lacks range, even with the optional tanks. Even at 7 knots, the range is only 1,083 nm and at 1000 RPM, 10 knots, only 747 nm. So not in the discussion as a passagemaker. Having been on a Hatteras 60 and been very impressed overall, even if it had the range, I wouldn't want to cross the Atlantic with it. And the one thing that really turned me away is their lack of a lower helm. They did offer one but to my knowledge never actually built one in this model of 60 and while they would consider doing so, the windshield shape concerns me there.

Now as to the Nordhavn CP 59. My other comments were related to all other Nordhavn's. This boat I have a hard time thinking of as a Nordhavn. Not their first attempt at CP and the others failed and are gone.

You're right that performance of the CP 59 vs. the Fleming 58 is very comparable. The CP might even be faster. The CP 59 is actually a smaller boat than the Fleming 58. 71,000 lbs vs. 88,000. LOA 59' vs. 63' (or 66' with platform). Beam 17' vs. 17'6". Draft 4'2" vs. 5'. Fuel 1100 gallons vs. 1450.

I see them as very competitive boats. However, I see one as being within it's builders mainstream and the other as not. I know the CP 59 is rated category A, but I think of it as what they label it, a coastal cruiser. I don't see it appealing to a hardcore "Nordy." Now, which would I choose for passagemaking? Fleming 65. Oh, that wasn't a choice. Well, I would prefer it over the 58 for passagemaking, just as I'd see Nordhavn fans selecting a 63 or 68. However, if I was going to buy having never been on the CP 59, I'd choose the Fleming 58 for passagemaking. It's more a proven design. Perhaps if I actually tried a CP 59 in the ocean with rough seas, I'd change my mind. I also would be curious as to it's range. I haven't seen or found any review yet of the CP 59, so we're all shooting a bit in the dark.

I think the CP 59 is clearly an attempt to appeal to non Nordhavn fans. It just doesn't pull me in though. Perhaps standing alone as a Coastal boat it would, but it lacks to me the Nordhavn lustre. Yes, it makes up for the reasons I wouldn't normally be a Nordhavn fan, but it doesn't pull me in. It's a boat line of one boat. I don't see any traditional Nordhavn fan choosing it, and do believe if someone who really liked Nordhavn chose it, they'd be disappointed as it would be short in some of the areas they really like.

CPseudonym 05-15-2016 11:37 AM

So besides you, who said anything about "passage making"? Thought we where looking at roughly similar 20ish knot planing hulls? Not everyone who buys a boat wants to go over the horizon. If they do there's certainly better choices than these three motor yachts.

BandB 05-15-2016 11:50 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by CPseudonym (Post 442745)
So besides you, who said anything about "passage making"? Thought we where looking at roughly similar 20ish knot planing hulls? Not everyone who buys a boat wants to go over the horizon. If they do there's certainly better choices than these three motor yachts.

No one did. It's just that we started discussing boats thought about as having that ability.

As a coastal boat, I'd personally not choose the Fleming or the Nordhavn, simply as I'd want more speed. So as a coastal boat, I'd be far more inclined to choose the Hatteras 60 and we came very close to doing so...more than once in our quest. It would be a great loop boat. My only criticism of it as a coastal boat is the lack of a good, functional, lower helm and, for us, that was a deal killer. The quality of Hatteras you can't beat. Better built boat than what we chose, just not better for our purposes.

go-planing 05-15-2016 01:18 PM

Ocean Alexander built some spectacular boats in the 58 to mid-60s size. Sadly they have move upmarket and their smallest new build is the 70E.


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