Taking the plunge?

[Werner]

Hi, my wife and I are thinking of starting a new adventure (recently retired at 60 from running sea kayaking and RIB adventure tourism business on the largest tides on earth of the Bay of Fundy) by buying a well used trawler on the west coast of Canada and living aboard in the summers. We will be using it mainly as a live aboard mother ship to get us to some remote areas on the BC coast. Something from 34 to 42 ft.

The hard decision is getting one of the Taiwan boats, which can be wonderfully laid out or something more simple but probably better built. In particular I was wondering about a 37 ft CML built by C&C of Canada. C&C was legendary for their high quality sailboats, but they also built a small number of power boats before the cheaper Taiwan competition put them out of business.

The C&C is a very simple layout without any of the pretty to look at wood work found on some of the Taiwan boats. The Taiwan boats seem better adapted for live aboard with what can be quite comfortable seating arrangements for relaxing in the evenings. A big plus for my wife. For those experienced boaters out there, is it difficult to reconfigure a boat for comfort. Say removing some built in dinette type structure and putting in a couple of comfy chairs with a smaller table.

I have found lots of info online about construction, types of power, things to look out for but very little on things like comforts of living on a boat and how that affects the experience of living aboard. For the price we can afford, from the viewpoint of the people that have spent a lot of time on these boats, is it better to go for sea worthiness or living comfort. To 'get it all' is out of our budget.

Cheers - Werner

 

[swampu]

Welcome, I for one would try to find someone who is selling a boat that is already outfitted for your needs. My boat will be used for exactly what you described but for the barrier islands of Mississippi and trips to Destin and La. My boat came with low draft 2 1/2 feet, wide 22' which lets me store lots of stuff (small boats) on the roof and bunk room=lots of friends can come and A/C 2.5 ton house unit on the roof. I plan on installing a compressor for diving the boat and the regular nicities of home (tv, tunes)
Point being, it sounds like you will do more than just ride around and sip gin all day. I wouldn't be brand specific but look more into how the boat is set up. Then the rest will follow.

 

[RT Firefly]

Greetings,
Welcome aboard.

 

[Old deckhand]

I have worked with several brokers over the years and have found Brian Kell of Grand Yachts in Vancouver a notch above the others. Fine prints disclaimer say not affiliated with him in any way.

 

[Hawgwash]

+1 For Brian Kell at Grand Yachts.

 

[Alaskan Sea-Duction]

Welcome...My wife and I are living your dream now. We just retired and heading up the inside passage this summer. Your statement:


"The hard decision is getting one of the Taiwan boats, which can be wonderfully laid out or something more simple but probably better built."


I have one of those wonderfully laid out and "better" built Taiwan boats.....When you buy a "used" boat it isn't NEW. Understanding that, may help you.


Again, welcome and good luck.

 

[BandB]

The hard decision is getting one of the Taiwan boats, which can be wonderfully laid out or something more simple but probably better built. I

Actually your first hard thing will be to get beyond prejudices not necessarily based on any fact at all. There are well built and poorly built Taiwan boats. There are well built and poorly built North American boats. Look at specific boats and how they meet your needs, not countries of build, and look at specific boat builders.

The line you stated sounds like the line of a failed North American builder who would rather blame his demise on inferior quality foreign built boats than his own business management. I spent my career in an industry that couldn't compete manufacturing domestically because it was so labor intensive. Still we put the same quality standards in on the goods we imported. However, boat building can compete as there are many other factors that offset labor costs. I point out that the largest boat builders are all in Europe or the US.

But Nordhavn, Horizon, Cheoy Lee, Fleming, Hargrave are all examples of either Taiwanese or Chinese boat builders with excellent quality.

 

[boatpoker]

In particular I was wondering about a 37 ft CML built by C&C of Canada.

The CML is built like a brick, very heavily and well constructed. The systems were well and simply installed and access to all mechanicals is superb, better than any other boat of similar size and type. The downside is that it is a slug .... pushes water like a bulldozer with lackluster fuel efficiency.

Sounds like you are a bit new to this, take a look at Marine Survey 101, it may help.

 

[Hawgwash]

There is a whole section on here about and for living aboard; either doing so or dreaming of. http://www.trawlerforum.com/forums/s30/

Can you rip apart the interior? Certainly. But when you toss that dinette, you might also be tossing valuable storage; something no live aboard seems to have enough of.

If the BC coast is your preference, then seaworthiness and comfort need to be in the same sentence.

BC inventory is not great at this time but keep your eye on our market for boats that might appeal to you. Scour the interior pictures, read the specs and envision yourself aboard them on a mid September St. John day; with rain.

Nothing wrong with Taiwan boats if you get the right one and there are a number of boats that have been built here on the west coast, for the west coast.

Some brokerages to look through;

http://www.bayviewyachts.com/

http://www.calibreyachts.com/

http://www.yachtworld.com/canmar/

http://www.customyachtsales.com/

http://www.yachtworld.com/grandyachts/grandyachts_8.html

http://www.islandyachtsales.ca/powerboat.htm

http://www.nwexplorations.com/

http://www.pacificboatbrokers.com/

http://www.bcyachts.com/

http://www.powerboatlistings.com/location/Washington

http://www.thunderbirdmarine.com/yacht-sales.php

http://www.findyachts.com/newlistings/

http://www.yachtsaleswest.com/

 

[refugio]

The hard decision is getting one of the Taiwan boats, which can be wonderfully laid out or something more simple but probably better built.

A few folks have chimed in on this, but I think they are thinking about newer and more expensive boats than you are considering. I can't think of anything particular to layout that differs among where boats are constructed. If you are looking at 70s and 80s era boats then, yes, offshore boats generally had more and fancier woodwork - interior and exterior. Ironically, removing exterior woodwork would commonly be considered an "upgrade".

For those experienced boaters out there, is it difficult to reconfigure a boat for comfort. Say removing some built in dinette type structure and putting in a couple of comfy chairs with a smaller table.

Removing interior features is surprisingly easy, but fancy interior woodwork has its own downside - in particular it's much more difficult to modify the interior and make it look harmonious with what remains. And that's if the renovation makes sense. There's probably nothing you can do to devalue a boat quicker than getting part way through a remodel that makes sense to only you. Truly, that would be right up there with a boat fire or sinking.

I would strongly suggest you live with a boat for a couple of years before attempting a major modification. And, honestly, there's a very real chance that you would never finish your modification before selling your boat - and you would take a massive hit on resale even for a modestly priced vessel.

For the price we can afford, from the viewpoint of the people that have spent a lot of time on these boats, is it better to go for sea worthiness or living comfort. To 'get it all' is out of our budget.

Seaworthiness depends on the seas you are navigating and your ability to avoid poor conditions. Lightly-constructed boats have gone to Alaska and back. But if you're asking to trade-off safety for comfort...I can't imagine there'd be a time when physical comfort would trump feeling secure on a vessel. If you and your mate don't feel safe then "game over".

 

[Werner]

Thanks for the advice everyone. Yes, we are newbies. I personally have no opinions on boats built in different regions as I have no knowledge other than what I read on the subject. We all have to start somewhere, and these forums are great for that.

The reason I mentioned the quality in regards to the Taiwan manufactured boats is due to a marine surveyors on-line blog I found; that describes what to look for in your own survey of the boat prior to calling a professional survey - and although he doesn't name boats he paints the taiwan boats with a wide brush as ones to avoid. But for the money I have, they will likely be what I turn to.

At this time I am spending much more time than I like in front of this computer doing research, which can be give quite contradictory advice. Gets the brain spinning for sure. The surveyor pointed out by boatpoker certainly seems to give some great advice for what to look out for. I imagine boat owners or brokers must cringe when a person arrives with such a list though. I wonder what happens when you squeeze one of those hoses as he suggests and it comes apart as he shows in one of his photos? Especially a through hull hose....

In regards to the CML by C&C as mentioned above, built very solid - but for a liveaboard we want something a bit more comfy. Like the C&C, which many would not have heard of, I am wondering if anyone has heard of another Canadian made boat from Garren Blakely. I cant seem to find anything on line about the build quality of the boats but I imagine that is because they are custom made and not a production boat. Any advice on going with relatively small boatyard custom built boats?

 

[refugio]

Any advice on going with relatively small boatyard custom built boats?

Sure - don't go that route unless you are hugely experienced and know exactly why 99% of the boats produced by the marine industry are not right for you.

But I get the feeling that the next option you're going to ask advice about is building a DIY boat from scratch or the hulk of a donor.



Keith

 

[BandB]

The reason I mentioned the quality in regards to the Taiwan manufactured boats is due to a marine surveyors on-line blog I found; that describes what to look for in your own survey of the boat prior to calling a professional survey - and although he doesn't name boats he paints the taiwan boats with a wide brush as ones to avoid. But for the money I have, they will likely be what I turn to.

?

Some of the surveyor/bloggers are the most prejudiced and narrow minded in the industry. There are brands they love and those they take every change to put down. They are just one more opinion. Don't overweight them.

 

[BandB]

Any advice on going with relatively small boatyard custom built boats?

With your experience or lack thereof, disaster lurks. You don't have the knowledge to select. Nor do you have a captain at this point that you could trust to do so for you. Don't reinvent the wheel.

 

[refugio]

I'm going to suggest taking a look at a 45/47 Bayliner motoryacht. Big on comfort and convenience, very little woodwork (watch out for cored flybridge on the 45), not easily modified (honestly that's a huge plus - really), and tons of them on the market which also means easy resale.

I'm of 2 minds on this boat. One - I promised myself more than 30 years ago that I would never own a Bayliner. Two - I know literally a dozen owners (some 2nd generation lifelong boaters) in my YC that are thrilled with them. I think I need to get over my prejudice.


Keith

 

[BandB]

I'm going to suggest taking a look at a 45/47 Bayliner motoryacht. Big on comfort and convenience, very little woodwork (watch out for cored flybridge on the 45), not easily modified (honestly that's a huge plus - really), and tons of them on the market which also means easy resale.

I'm of 2 minds on this boat. One - I promised myself more than 30 years ago that I would never own a Bayliner. Two - I know literally a dozen owners (some 2nd generation lifelong boaters) in my YC that are thrilled with them. I think I need to get over my prejudice.

Keith

In my opinion, and I must admit to a personal friendship that may sway that opinion some, but I think the Bayliners built in Arlington, WA were really good boats.

As to their less expensive runabouts, they must be judged on a different scale. However, Orin Edson opened boating up to hundreds of thousands of people who otherwise could not have done it. You had available boats at a price point far below that previously existing. The market was changed, perhaps forever.

I wish there was someone today building the Bayliner cruisers or equivalent with the quality they had and at today's equivalency of those price points. I think there remains a huge void that no one has filled. It's probably best for me that the Bayliner factory was converted into other use or I might have been tempted to try something. Everyone doesn't need a passagemaker or want a trawler.

 

[RT Firefly]

Greetings,
Mr. BB. The last time I was by there, the Buddy Davis factory in Wanchese, NC was up for sale...Just sayin'

 

[johnrupp]

In my opinion, and I must admit to a personal friendship that may sway that opinion some, but I think the Bayliners built in Arlington, WA were really good boats.



As to their less expensive runabouts, they must be judged on a different scale. However, Orin Edson opened boating up to hundreds of thousands of people who otherwise could not have done it. You had available boats at a price point far below that previously existing. The market was changed, perhaps forever.



I wish there was someone today building the Bayliner cruisers or equivalent with the quality they had and at today's equivalency of those price points. I think there remains a huge void that no one has filled. It's probably best for me that the Bayliner factory was converted into other use or I might have been tempted to try something. Everyone doesn't need a passagemaker or want a trawler.

Truer words couldn't be said. The Bayliner MY's from the 32xx and up represent a great value both when they were new and on today's used market.

 

[BandB]

Truer words couldn't be said. The Bayliner MY's from the 32xx and up represent a great value both when they were new and on today's used market.

Unfortunately, "value" is often interpreted as "cheap" and translated to "poor quality." They proved they could build a quality boat at an affordable price and be profitable while doing so. Now, Brunswick, due to greater overhead and corporate costs, couldn't make their targeted profits at those costs and selling prices.

 

[BandB]

Greetings,
Mr. BB. The last time I was by there, the Buddy Davis factory in Wanchese, NC was up for sale...Just sayin'

There are some other empty nice factories around, but the Arlington factory was a model of efficiency and design. It was well ahead of it's time. Building a boat manufacturing facility is really easy. Building an efficient, low cost, facility is much more costly and challenging.

 

[JustBob]

Charter and get out on the water! I have been a trawler fan for a very long time. Over the last couple years I got seduced by some other form factors (started with going on a 50' GB Eastbay). Chartered a similar type of boat last year thinking I would really love it. I didn't. Only cost 5 or 6k to find out.

 

[Werner]

Thanks again everyone. Nope, wont be rebuilding anything. In fact would like to find something fairly dependable as we aren't needing a project. We will be heading out into remote areas of the Pacific northwest mainly to explore and do some kayaking (after 15 years of running kayaking adventure businesses we want to stay active as long as possible in our retirement) The boat is to serve as a comfortable mother ship.


We have identified some must haves. A centerline berth in the main stateroom. Twin engines. A good area to relax in, like the boats that don't have a built in dinette type structure or if they do still have some room to put in some comfy chairs. A generator and good heating system. The largest fuel and water tanks possible. Of course the usual galley and head with shower. A spot to strap on some sea kayaks. All that for under 100K Cdn. Which seems to put us into 70's and 80's boats.


Some of my questions are mainly to hear opinions from people that have been around trawlers for some time. Avoid as many dumb mistakes as possible. Other than taking up a live aboard lifestyle that is.


Have looked at Bayliners. Stopped after reading another forum about how they are built and if you aren't careful on haulout and leave the tanks full, that weight can hog the frame. The writer mentioned how he has heard of them breaking apart and sinking in rough seas due to stresses like that on haulout. Perhaps the older ones were built stronger? They do have some out there with good prices.


We aren't looking for anything with semi planing hulls. Preferably with some keel. Heavy and slow is good with us. Spend some time in remote fjords on the hook.


A new question - are the bow thrusters a large advantage when docking to resupply at busy Marinas?

 

[dhays]

A few random thoughts...

- A dinette can be really handy for eating. One option that some boats have is a dinette table that folds in on itself. This makes it a skinny "cocktail" type table giving lots of comfortable room for sitting at the dinette seats. Of course, it is very easy to simply remove the dinette table and seats in most boats if you choose and drop a couple easy chairs in its place.

- You want twins but it sounds like you want a full displacement hull. I am not that experienced but most boats with twins seem to be on at least Semi-displacement hulls. It sounds as if you may want twins for the redundancy in remote anchorages?

- Don't write off Bayliners. I was as guilty as any at not thinking very highly of them but it was simply ignorance on my part. A Bayliner 45xx would be comfortable, roomy, has twin engines, has a nice sized boat deck for putting your kayaks, and is a great value on the used market. Bang for buck, a used 45xx is hard to beat. KevinS runs a Bayliner all over the PNW and Alaska and can give you great information on how well it handles.

- I am new to bow thrusters and I have to say that I now love them. It makes a huge difference. However, I have a single. It may be less of an issue if you have twins.

 

[Hawgwash]

Werner, try to track down a late 70s, early 80s 40' to 44' Tollycraft Aft Cabin to look at. Especially a 43 if you can. Gas or diesel. Great west coast boats for what you have in mind.

You may change gears a bit.

 

[BandB]

Have looked at Bayliners. Stopped after reading another forum about how they are built and if you aren't careful on haulout and leave the tanks full, that weight can hog the frame. The writer mentioned how he has heard of them breaking apart and sinking in rough seas due to stresses like that on haulout. Perhaps the older ones were built stronger? They do have some out there with good prices.

That is total BS. Odd how many people who have never been on a Bayliner, never owned one choose to make up such things. Meanwhile, we've done the question in threads here of actual owners and no such tales, no horror stories, a very happy, pleased customer. Stresses on haulout? Wow. Insane. Weight can hog the frame? Where do people come up with these things. In all these years there is not a single case reported yet of delamination. If Bertram could have said that, they might not have been sold. I thought surely when we started a thread here some angry owners would surface, but they just didn't.

Are they boats to cross oceans? No. But fine boats for runs to the Bahamas.

There are negative things that one can express toward them, stating why one person or another doesn't like them. However, tales such as the one you're relating have no basis in fact. It's all "I heard from someone who heard from someone who heard from someone who probably made up the entire story."

 

[refugio]

A heavy deep keel boat with twins...that would be an rare bird indeed. It's hard to imagine a distance cruiser type wanting to double the maintenance cost, lower the efficiency, un-protect the running gear, duplicate the controls, and take up all that space...and then not need the 2nd engine to get above hull speed.

Whatever that story was about Bayliners hogging - that's a new one for me. There are also more than a dozen of the older 32 and 38 motoryachts in my club that have cruised the PNW for 30 years each without any problems (OK, one guy lost an engine - but then he upgraded to a 47). And I don't recall this issue coming up on the Bayliner Owner Forum, but by all means if some random person says it then it must be true.

If you're looking to purchase a vessel in the PNW for $70K to $80K (US) and you're not looking at Bayliners, Tollys, and Uniflites then I think you need to keep doing your research until they start to become attractive.

 

[johnrupp]

Have looked at Bayliners. Stopped after reading another forum about how they are built and if you aren't careful on haulout and leave the tanks full, that weight can hog the frame. The writer mentioned how he has heard of them breaking apart and sinking in rough seas due to stresses like that on haulout. Perhaps the older ones were built stronger? They do have some out there with good prices.

Perhaps you should get all your advice on that forum if your not only going to believe but reprint such utter BS.

 

[Hawgwash]

Good entertainment, this thread.

 

[BandB]

Werner.

A few words of advice. I'd suggest coming to a new forum and reading a lot initially, then asking a few questions. I would strongly suggest not reposting garbage you've heard from the drunks at the bar or their online equivalent. You could have just as easily asked opinions on Bayliners and on various Taiwanese boats without quoting or paraphrasing nonsense from other places on the web.

We all have our preferences, but you don't see a lot of hyperbole here of boats falling apart and unsafe at any speed. The fact is most boats are good, just some better. Most have their attributes, just some more. There are very few builders out there building bad boats. Just some not as good as others. What you're more likely to hear here are personal preferences stated as such and when asked what we think of a brand, if we say we don't like them, we'll generally say why.

I'll give you a good example. Fleming is generally recognized as one of the top quality boats on the market. Built in Taiwan, by the way. Caltex will point out how high the sides of a Hatteras are compared to a Fleming and how much bigger his Hatteras was than a similar length Fleming when docked beside it. All factual and he's a Hatteras fan. However, nothing malicious or fabricated in his comments.

As part of your potential boat search you need to explore different attributes of boats and then those brands that best fit your needs. You also need to be more careful about where you gather information and much more careful about redistributing that information without further verifying it.

 

[JDCAVE]

A heavy deep keel boat with twins...that would be an rare bird indeed. It's hard to imagine a distance cruiser type wanting to double the maintenance cost, lower the efficiency, un-protect the running gear, duplicate the controls, and take up all that space...and then not need the 2nd engine to get above hull speed.

Kadey Krogen. Many buyers are commissioning the new 50+footers with twins. And they are full displacement hulls. Personally I'd prefer a single, but the twins have a shallower draft for those areas where it is a good idea (the Bahamas?)


Jim
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