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-   -   CO detector question... (http://www.trawlerforum.com/forums/s3/co-detector-question-18510.html)

psneeld 02-04-2015 09:03 PM

Read the USCG reports on CO deaths.

A large number of maritime deaths have been reclassified as CO poisoning. Thus their big campaign several years ago. True that the majority were from knuckleheaded things like "teak surfing" or the weird ones with the houseboats where swimmers came up into a generator exhaust void under lake houseboats.

But then the weird ones get you too....like the lady that went to sleep in the aft cabin and all they could figure was CO traveled along the hull from the genset exhaust, came in the aft head sink drain and slowly filled the cabin while underway....now that is a stretch and not the captains fault...but possible. There are things besides detectors that help...like no sleeping without being checked on...but come now...how many balls do we juggle?

Plus...ever been in a tight slip with canvas up on a gasser?... or just next to one?When I worked for Sea Ray...those installed detectors would sound off within minutes of starting the engines some days. Not false alarms either....

Captains fault? Sure...why not....just pray that philosophy doesn't bite you if one of those one in a million ones get you.....

jleonard 02-05-2015 07:35 AM

One of the reasons that I got one (besides the fact I was told to get one or lose my insurance) is that when at a dock, most if not all gas engine boats warm up at the dock before departing. Sometimes they run for 15 to 20 minutes (or more) and if they are within a few slips, you are getting doused in CO. And for most of that time they are running cold.
Then there's the dock queeners who fire up once a week and run for 15 minutes.
So there's a lot of gas engine idle time going on around the dock.

Art 02-05-2015 08:39 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jleonard (Post 304943)
One of the reasons that I got one (besides the fact I was told to get one or lose my insurance) is that when at a dock, most if not all gas engine boats warm up at the dock before departing. Sometimes they run for 15 to 20 minutes (or more) and if they are within a few slips, you are getting doused in CO. And for most of that time they are running cold.
Then there's the dock queeners who fire up once a week and run for 15 minutes.
So there's a lot of gas engine idle time going on around the dock.

All good reasons. How often does your CO detector sound off?

If it does sound alarm because of others running engine(s) at your dock what do you do, leave the area or ask them to shut-down or pull-out of slip?

Wxx3 02-05-2015 10:20 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ksanders (Post 302608)
We have diesel and no propane.

We have CO and smoke detectors. These were purchases at Home Depot, just like the ones at my dirt house.

If you do a search you will find it very difficult to locate a confirmed case of a CO poisoning death from diesel.

Kevin,

The only case I know was in Alaska. I think they were coming back to Valdez.
I think no one died, but it was just luck and they were in hospital for a while.

ksanders 02-05-2015 10:55 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Wxx3 (Post 304990)
Kevin,

The only case I know was in Alaska. I think they were coming back to Valdez.
I think no one died, but it was just luck and they were in hospital for a while.

Thanks Richard!

Even though the risk from my boat of CO is minimal to none, CO detectors are part of most smoke detectors sold now days.

So it was easy, buy a bunch of smoke detectors and get CO detectors to boot!

psneeld 02-05-2015 12:23 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ksanders (Post 305001)
Thanks Richard!

Even though the risk from my boat of CO is minimal to none, CO detectors are part of most smoke detectors sold now days.

So it was easy, buy a bunch of smoke detectors and get CO detectors to boot!

what? No canaries?

Baker 02-05-2015 02:10 PM

I think y'all are splitting hairs here and getting a bit "semantical". Diesel, technically, has enough CO to kill you. But I think you have to concentrate and make a very large effort to make that happen....ie wrap your lips around the exhaust pipe or pump diesel exhaust directly into a closed space for a long time. Other than that, you are basically safe.

But, I think this needs to be brought up to people who are in the market for their first "bigger" boat. The threat of CO poisoning is probably one of THE BIGGEST advantages of going with a diesel powered boat(explosion hazard as well). With all due respect to our gas powered brethren, there is no way on earth I would sleep well at night with a gasoline powered generator running in the bilge. I just wouldn't. End of story.

One other thing....Most of the marine type CO detectors will be alarmed by battery gas. If your wet cell batteries are in not that great of shape, it can set off your detectors.... my Mainship used to do that until the batteries were replaced.

psneeld 02-05-2015 02:15 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Baker (Post 305080)
I think y'all are splitting hairs here and getting a bit "semantical". Diesel, technically, has enough CO to kill you. But I think you have to concentrate and make a very large effort to make that happen....ie wrap your lips around the exhaust pipe or pump diesel exhaust directly into a closed space for a long time. Other than that, you are basically safe.

But, I think this needs to be brought up to people who are in the market for their first "bigger" boat. The threat of CO poisoning is probably one of THE BIGGEST advantages of going with a diesel powered boat(explosion hazard as well). With all due respect to our gas powered brethren, there is no way on earth I would sleep well at night with a gasoline powered generator running in the bilge. I just wouldn't. End of story.

One other thing....Most of the marine type CO detectors will be alarmed by battery gas. If your wet cell batteries are in not that great of shape, it can set off your detectors.... my Mainship used to do that until the batteries were replaced.

Happened to me last spring...woke me up at 0300....groggy....took me a minute to remember some work with the battery charger.

Opened up the engine hatch and reached in to feel the batteries. One 8D was crackling and hissing so out on the dock it went.

why doesn't that crap happen at 1500 instead? :D

Baker 02-05-2015 02:25 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by psneeld (Post 305081)
Happened to me last spring...woke me up at 0300....groggy....took me a minute to remember some work with the battery charger.

Opened up the engine hatch and reached in to feel the batteries. One 8D was crackling and hissing so out on the dock it went.

why doesn't that crap happen at 1500 instead? :D

The same reason why your smoke detectors at your dirt house start chirping at 3am!!!!....and then you have to go on a "listening adventure" to determine which is the offending one.....gawd that pisses me off!!!!! The funny thing is...is that the capacitance is such that in those detectors, they are AC powered and DC powered. I have unplugged them and taken the battery out and it was still chirping.....this after being woke up at 3 am and taking 10 minutes for my sample journey around a house with tile floors echoing every chirp... You think you have the damn thing neutralized and it chirps AGAIN!!!!.....with no power source!!!!!!! I almost lost it and threw it against the wall!!! I know now....

Sisuitl 02-05-2015 09:35 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Wxx3 (Post 304990)
Kevin,

The only case I know was in Alaska. I think they were coming back to Valdez.
I think no one died, but it was just luck and they were in hospital for a while.

From the engine?

CO poisoning has been a serious problem in B.C. over the years on small commercial fish boats. I've never seen a case that wasn't associated with someone trying to keep warm in a closed cabin with a catalytic heater, faulty stove, or gas engine.

OTOH I haven't done an extensive literature search on the subject. Could be, as someone alluded to above, that no one is looking closely.

jleonard 02-06-2015 07:19 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Art (Post 304955)
All good reasons. How often does your CO detector sound off?

If it does sound alarm because of others running engine(s) at your dock what do you do, leave the area or ask them to shut-down or pull-out of slip?

It hasn't gone off yet, but I haven't had a detector for very long.
And YES I would ask them to leave or shut down. Maybe "ask" is not the correct word.

Art 02-06-2015 08:43 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jleonard (Post 305257)
It hasn't gone off yet, but I haven't had a detector for very long.
And YES I would ask them to leave or shut down. Maybe "ask" is not the correct word.

This plays well with your signature... more than one meaning to a phrase! :D

Attitude Adjustment
40 Albin
Mystic,Ct

Jeffrey S 02-06-2015 11:29 AM

In our insurance survey done this season, we were given an A item to address - replacing our cheapo CO detectors. "A" items were required by the insurance company to "fix."

The surveyor quoted some ABYC standards and I had to comply by buying Xintex wired in detectors. They were about $99 on Amazon. I checked out the standard and there's no wiggle room in it. They have to be wired inand meet some NFPA and other specific standards - some marine ones. None of the Walmart ones meet it - I checked.

I've been the EMT on CO ambulance calls. It isn't pretty and is quite dangerous. The risk of injury is probably a lot higher by NOT wearing a dinghy kill switch which few of us wear, but the insurance companies are going to make us all comply with these CO standards out there. Having a guest die onboard due to CO is probably an expensive claim for an insurance company to pay out.

Northern Spy 02-06-2015 11:56 AM

ABYC Standard A-24 2008 (I don't have 2014) recommends CO detectors on any boat with accommodation spaces and gasoline powered engines or generators.

NFPA 302 13.1 is more specific A carbon monoxide detection system shall be installed on all boats with an enclosed accommodation compartment(s) and a gasoline generator set, or an inboard gasoline propulsion engine.

MartySchwartz 02-06-2015 05:55 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Northern Spy (Post 305310)
ABYC Standard A-24 2008 (I don't have 2014) recommends CO detectors on any boat with accommodation spaces and gasoline powered engines or generators.

NFPA 302 13.1 is more specific A carbon monoxide detection system shall be installed on all boats with an enclosed accommodation compartment(s) and a gasoline generator set, or an inboard gasoline propulsion engine.


Hmmmmm, neither of those would seem to apply to our diesel powered vessel since we do not have a gasoline powered gen set or engines.

Marty.....................

psneeld 02-06-2015 06:10 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MartySchwartz (Post 305374)
Hmmmmm, neither of those would seem to apply to our diesel powered vessel since we do not have a gasoline powered gen set or engines.

Marty.....................

Except there is a goofy train of thought with some types that if you have something...it needs to comply...even though you aren't required to have it in the first place.

Which makes sense to a point... but in the case of CO detectors...good enough for a mansion....good enough for my boat.

sunchaser 02-06-2015 06:45 PM

I spent many years working in and around underground mines. With front end loaders and diesel trucks, lots of external ventilation was required to keep CO and NOx levels below threshold levels. If gas levels were too high, or more common it would get too hot, we'd stop work in that area and move somewhere else.

There are charts showing CO and NOx levels vs time. That is how we managed the UP operations.

MartySchwartz 02-06-2015 06:48 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by psneeld (Post 305379)
Except there is a goofy train of thought with some types that if you have something...it needs to comply...even though you aren't required to have it in the first place.

Which makes sense to a point... but in the case of CO detectors...good enough for a mansion....good enough for my boat.


Don't get me wrong, I have 'em. In fact I replaced both of mine yesterday. While I am not overly concerned with producing CO, I have experienced others sharing theirs often enough that I want to have the monitors around. My point is that if that is truly what the ABYC and NFPA standards state then insisting I comply with that standard, just to comply, on my boat is nonsense.

Anyone have access to the current standards? Or is 2008 the last time they were updated?

Marty..................

Northern Spy 02-06-2015 07:16 PM

ABYC A-24 was updated in May 2014.

MartySchwartz 02-07-2015 12:21 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Northern Spy (Post 305397)
ABYC A-24 was updated in May 2014.

Anyone have a copy?


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