Another tax question (sort of)

[Spike]

I guess a little background is in order first. My wife and I plan to retire this year and sell off everything. We will be cruising full time for a couple of years before deciding on a land base somewhere in warmer climes. We're both getting tired of these polar vortexes (vortices?) We will be doing the loop slowly, north in the summer south in the winter...farther north the next year etc.

My plan has been to use the St. Brendan's Isle mail service to establish some sort of residency. Florida seemed a good choice with no state income tax. The problem is our boat is currently registered in KY. as they have no sales tax requirement. In reading an earlier post and the state of FL tax page I assume I will be responsible to register the boat and pay the full tax the moment we reach Florida in the boat. Not a huge amount or a real turn off but something I'd like to avoid if possible.

I guess the real question here is, does anyone know of another similar mail service that does the same thing as St. B's that's not in Florida? A service somewhere land-locked maybe? If the state has an income tax we may be better to stick with FL and take the hit once. I've been looking on the web without much luck.

 

[pilothouse king]

I guess a little background is in order first. My wife and I plan to retire this year and sell off everything. We will be cruising full time for a couple of years before deciding on a land base somewhere in warmer climes. We're both getting tired of these polar vortexes (vortices?) We will be doing the loop slowly, north in the summer south in the winter...farther north the next year etc.

My plan has been to use the St. Brendan's Isle mail service to establish some sort of residency. Florida seemed a good choice with no state income tax. The problem is our boat is currently registered in KY. as they have no sales tax requirement. In reading an earlier post and the state of FL tax page I assume I will be responsible to register the boat and pay the full tax the moment we reach Florida in the boat. Not a huge amount or a real turn off but something I'd like to avoid if possible.

I guess the real question here is, does anyone know of another similar mail service that does the same thing as St. B's that's not in Florida? A service somewhere land-locked maybe? If the state has an income tax we may be better to stick with FL and take the hit once. I've been looking on the web without much luck.

You can bring your boat into Florida, register it and pay no sales tax. It won't even be mentioned. I have a link on my site to an excellent Documentation service that can handle it all for you. It's a non-issue. Plus, I would like to repeat, that due to budget cuts there are NO (none, zip, nada) Tax Agents out in the field looking for scofflaws. Once upon a time they would go audit Marina contracts looking for boats, walked docks, etc., but now they even reassigned those who used to do that -into doing other work-indoors. Makes no sense, but that's the facts. Even if somebody "dropped a dime" on a flagrant scofflaw (like signed a 90 day affidavit of being out-of-State resident, then took the boat direct to their Florida home) there's nobody in the State to do anything about it. The tax agents aren't even allowed access to the Internet to catch all the unlicensed dealers selling boats and cars on Ebay and Craigs list and even BRAGGING of "thousands sold", yet collecting no sales tax OR giving any affidavits or paperwork. It's insane, but true. You seen our Governor? Come on down!! We like Kentucky folks!!

 

[SCOTTEDAVIS]

I am on my phone, and others will explain further, but you will not owe sales tax on your boat only the yearly registration fee ( less then 300 dollars). You are not a state resident and have owned your boat for several years without the intension of bringing into the state correct? Did you pay sales tax in another state?

From my phone hope not to many errors.

 

[SCOTTEDAVIS]

You can bring your boat into Florida, register it and pay no sales tax. It won't even be mentioned. I have a link on my site to an excellent Documentation service that can handle it all for you. It's a non-issue. Plus, I would like to repeat, that due to budget cuts there are NO (none, zip, nada) Tax Agents out in the field looking for scofflaws. Once upon a time they would go audit Marina contracts looking for boats, walked docks, etc., but now they even reassigned those who used to do that -into doing other work-indoors. Makes no sense, but that's the facts. Even if somebody "dropped a dime" on a flagrant scofflaw (like signed a 90 day affidavit of being out-of-State resident, then took the boat direct to their Florida home) there's nobody in the State to do anything about it. The tax agents aren't even allowed access to the Internet to catch all the unlicensed dealers selling boats and cars on Ebay and Craigs list and even BRAGGING of "thousands sold", yet collecting no sales tax OR giving any affidavits or paperwork. It's insane, but true. You seen our Governor? Come on down!! We like Kentucky folks!!

I find this curious, why would a government during tough times prevent the collection of tax's? Particularly "low hanging fruit" taxes.

Do you have any factual back-up to add to these statements?

As a business owner in the state I can attest to the fact that tax enforcement regarding business taxes is up, in fact audits are at an all time high according to my accountant. Strange that they would stop worrying about enforcement of sales tax's regarding purchases.

Please direct me to some resources or provide some evidence to your claims, I would not want anyone getting into financial trouble regarding taxes.

But if there is no one watching the hen house, well that's news to me.

Regards

 

[meridian]

I'm with st Brendans and live aboard, currently in marathon. I registered my boat last week and was told if i owned the boat more than 6 months no tax was due. Also my albin is 30 years old therefore an antique, $11/yr registration.
.

 

[SCOTTEDAVIS]

Use tax and surtax are not due on boats brought to Florida if you meet
all
of the following conditions:
•
You own the boat 6 months or longer, and
•
You have shown no intent to use the boat in Florida at or before the time of purchase, and
•
The boat has been in use 6 months or longer within the taxing jurisdiction of another state, U.S.
territory, or the District of Columbia. Time spent in foreign waters does not count as part of the
6-month period


http://dor.myflorida.com/dor/forms/current/gt800005.pdf

 

[Moonstruck]

pilothouse king wrote:

" Even if somebody "dropped a dime" on a flagrant scofflaw (like signed a 90 day affidavit of being out-of-State resident, then took the boat direct to their Florida home) there's nobody in the State to do anything about it."


I have bought 2 boats under this. In both cases I was required to send back to Tallahassee copies of marina and fuel bills with the boat documentation number on them proving I had left the state in a timely fashion. They also notified my home state of the purchase. I always complied completely. I have no idea what would have happened if I didn't, but would face a very stiff penalty if caught.

 

[Spike]

Thanks for the quick replies. The following is the part of the form that made me think it would affect us.

Under most conditions, use tax and surtax are due on boats brought into Florida within 6 months from the
date of purchase. However, use tax may be due upon importation into Florida, under either of the following
conditions:
• The boat belongs to a Florida resident; or
• The boat belongs to a corporation for the use of a corporate officer or director who is a Florida
resident or who owns, controls, or manages a dwelling in Florida.

If we use St. Brendan's and therefore become Florida "residents" that line said nothing about a longer than 6 month ownership waiver.

Sounds like Meridian had no issue though. I hope to be down in the Keys in a few weeks for a brief thaw out. Maybe I'll try to find a BMV and ask a few questions.

Thanks again.

 

[SCOTTEDAVIS]

The word "may" is problematic in case law.

I encourage you to get real counsel and not rely on me or another internet "expert" The advice is generally worth what you pay for it.


Good luck and welcome, if you get to the east coast I would love to buy you a beverage of your choice.

 

[Pluto]

This is confusing. I am considering buying a 100k plus boat in Florida from a private party, no broker. I live in Georgia. Its my understanding if I buy the boat from an individual either directly or through a broker, it will not generate a sales tax bill. However if I buy it through a " dealer" who has the boat in inventory, and the boat is titled to them, the dealer has to report the sale to Tallahassee, who then reports it to Georgia, and I will get a 7% sales tax bill. I am just trying to confirm this. Yet when I try to get a straight answer from the Georgia Department of Revenue, and navigate through the phone options to a human, (3 times with a heavy accent) they dont seem to know what i am talking about.
Why is this so hard!!! I get the advalorum tax, i am asking about sales tax. Internet searches just add to the confusion.

Frustrated in Savannah

 

[SCOTTEDAVIS]

You need a leaving Fl. sticker, it gives you so many days to leave Florida without owing state sales tax. You must not be a Fl. resident to qualify. You then take what ever action in Ga. that you feel comfortable with.

You must leave Fl within the allocated time however there is a safe harbor prevision for emergency service work needed for safe transit.


http://dor.myflorida.com/dor/tips/pdf/tip09a01-05.pdf

 

[Pluto]

"You then take what ever action in Ga. that you feel comfortable with. "

Thanks Scott, I appreciate your response. I am not concerned with Florida sales tax. I am concerned with Georgia sales tax. I have no idea what you mean by "taking action I am comfortable with". Can you explain?

 

[pilothouse king]

pilothouse king wrote:

" Even if somebody "dropped a dime" on a flagrant scofflaw (like signed a 90 day affidavit of being out-of-State resident, then took the boat direct to their Florida home) there's nobody in the State to do anything about it."


I have bought 2 boats under this. In both cases I was required to send back to Tallahassee copies of marina and fuel bills with the boat documentation number on them proving I had left the state in a timely fashion. They also notified my home state of the purchase. I always complied completely. I have no idea what would have happened if I didn't, but would face a very stiff penalty if caught.

Yes, there's one guy up in Tallahassee that never leaves his office- that checks that paperwork with a fine tooth comb, but if you didn't do it at all, there's NO ONE checking to see. If you hadn't of done this and I knew about it and you took the boat to your house in Florida (which according to the law-you can't receive an affidavit) without doing anything, and I wanted to report you- there's no longer anybody in the Boat Enforcement Office who could do anything about it.

 

[SCOTTEDAVIS]

My guess is that Ga. will require you to pay the sales tax on your purchase. It is up to you to comply or not, your comfort level regarding tax evasion will be your guide.

I am a fool, but I sleep at night. I paid my state taxes following my private purchase of Firefly from an out of state.

I was told the only sure things in life are death and taxes, or was that Texas, oh well in any event I am covered.

Google "paying boat sales tax in Georgia"

 

[SCOTTEDAVIS]

Yes, there's one guy up in Tallahassee that never leaves his office- that checks that paperwork with a fine tooth comb, but if you didn't do it at all, there's NO ONE checking to see. If you hadn't of done this and I knew about it and you took the boat to your house in Florida (which according to the law-you can't receive an affidavit) without doing anything, and I wanted to report you- there's no longer anybody in the Boat Enforcement Office who could do anything about it.

Sorry I don't buy this.

 

[pilothouse king]

This is confusing. I am considering buying a 100k plus boat in Florida from a private party, no broker. I live in Georgia. Its my understanding if I buy the boat from an individual either directly or through a broker, it will not generate a sales tax bill. However if I buy it through a " dealer" who has the boat in inventory, and the boat is titled to them, the dealer has to report the sale to Tallahassee, who then reports it to Georgia, and I will get a 7% sales tax bill. I am just trying to confirm this. Yet when I try to get a straight answer from the Georgia Department of Revenue, and navigate through the phone options to a human, (3 times with a heavy accent) they dont seem to know what i am talking about.
Why is this so hard!!! I get the advalorum tax, i am asking about sales tax. Internet searches just add to the confusion.

Frustrated in Savannah

The LAW say's that IF you buy a boat from a private individual-that tax is immediately due with no exemption, but what I'm telling you is that there's nobody enforcing this- much to my frustration as a licensed broker! There are people who come down here every "season" buy and sell boats, or act as Brokers who aren't licensed with the State and not only are they selling these vehicles and vessels without collecting any sales tax OR giving you any affidavits, they're all quite bold about it- even advertising their success on their Ebay ads. The Florida Dept of Revenue workers are not allowed access to the Internet while at work, so they can't see them-is their response. After they leave the office at 4pm, they don't care. It's quite frustrating as we Floridians know we garner all our revenue from Sales Tax, having no State Income Tax. One would THINK the Governor would care, but he doesn't. The Dept of Revenue executives have tried to make the point, I've written letters too. NO reply-other than a boiler plate response of "thank you for your communication, the -yadda yadda yadda "

 

[pilothouse king]

Sorry I don't buy this.

Too bad. lol Prove me wrong. Tomorrow call up the Dept of Revenue Boat Enforcement Division (good luck) and tell them you would like to report a neighbor of yours who just bought a million dollar yacht, and brought it to his Florida home, and he say's he didn't pay any sales tax, nor does he have a Tax exemption decal. You tell me what they say. THE phone number for the one guy (John Cacciatore) who combs through paperwork you send- is 850-617-8594. Good luck on getting through. And when you do-ask him if he ever leaves his office. lol.

What do I know, I'm only in the business 40 years, owning my Brokerage for 30 and have these people's number on my cell phone. lol
Call me on the phone tomorrow and I'll give you the cell phone number of the "head of boat enforcement division"-In quotation marks because it doesn't exist anymore. She's as frustrated as anybody, but is always glad to help!!

 

[pilothouse king]

pilothouse king wrote:

" Even if somebody "dropped a dime" on a flagrant scofflaw (like signed a 90 day affidavit of being out-of-State resident, then took the boat direct to their Florida home) there's nobody in the State to do anything about it."


I have bought 2 boats under this. In both cases I was required to send back to Tallahassee copies of marina and fuel bills with the boat documentation number on them proving I had left the state in a timely fashion. They also notified my home state of the purchase. I always complied completely. I have no idea what would have happened if I didn't, but would face a very stiff penalty if caught.

Nothing would happened! People do it all the time. Toothless toy poodles is what they've become. Thank Governor Scott for this. The ex-head of the division Charles Martin resigned because when he pushed a fellow over this issue, (he had bought a Bayliner 5288 and took it to his house in Lighthouse Point-yet signed an affidavit that he owned no property, was no officer in Florida corporation etc,= a Boat Enforcement agent saw the expired decal on the boat, and they made a case) -this fellow, whom I know- had HIS attorney send Mr. Martin a letter insisting the onus was NOT on his client to prove it had left, that it was the States to prove it hadn't, and if he insisted upon this he would personally take Mr. Martin to court for harassment.. Mr. Martin told ME "I'm a State employee, and can't afford to be fighting lawsuits, I'm retiring"-and did! Now years afterwards I had the chance to sell the boat again, and not wanting my clients to get caught up in any unfinished business-I called them and asked about the boat-"We've closed our files on it-do as you wish".
And I'm talking back when they DID have Enforcement Units going to Marina's, riding in boats, etc.
Here's another true story from the late 90's. Out of the blue I received a letter from the Dept of Revenue asking a question about a boat I had sold years later. I didn't know what they were talking about. He sent over a Sales Tax Affidavit with my Brokerage, My tax number and a forged signature of mine on it. I knew NOTHING about the deal- turned out a scumbag Broker who was with Koch Newton and Partners sold a 60' Technomarine to a buyer whom I had brought to his office, and after I left they connocted up a plan, and paperwork that this Ft. Lauderdale buyer had bought the boat from me-and they had taken it to the Bahamas for the closing-and that I was even on the boat(!!) I would had LOVED TO HAD MADE A NICKEL on that deal-but it was all behind my back- when in deposition (I went ballistic on this as forgery is a pretty serious crime in my book when I filed charges against this Broker with the Yacht and Ship Licensing bureau here, AND with the Dept of Revenue) and learned that in reality this broker had physically just driven the boat from their office on Las Olas to the owners house up the River.
You know what happened?
A. Florida Yacht and Ship declared that ONLY a member of the public could make a charge against a Broker for malfeasance, so therefore nothing would be done.
B. The Dept of Revenue said "eh, it was years ago, they just came up with a Customs Clearance (dated much later from the event), that's good with us". C. Ft. Lauderdale Police said "It's a civil matter".
D. I told him back in 98- "If Bin Laden had a Yacht Broker, you would be him".
Just googled him up and :"Worked extensively in the USA as Yacht Broker from 1996 with Koch Newton and 2001-2007 worked directly under Merle Wood.
2007 -2011 open the Brokerage Division of Art Marine the Azimut -Benetti Director for the Middle East.
Was voted Middle Eastern Yacht Broker of the year by Arabian Yachting Magazine 2011.
Currently residing in South East Asia consulting for various companies who wish to penetrate into the Asian market." I don't believe a WORD. A worldwide hustler! I've heard there's a bounty on him by others he's ripped off. No physical address of course.

What REALLY happened was that this buyer was likely a really rich guy. I was surprised they shut it down so quickly with such hard evidence. We have a saying here "he with the most lawyers always wins". (why you rarely can beat the Feds!)

There- that's the reality of life in the big city.

 

[pilothouse king]

I find this curious, why would a government during tough times prevent the collection of tax's? Particularly "low hanging fruit" taxes.

Do you have any factual back-up to add to these statements?

As a business owner in the state I can attest to the fact that tax enforcement regarding business taxes is up, in fact audits are at an all time high according to my accountant. Strange that they would stop worrying about enforcement of sales tax's regarding purchases.

Please direct me to some resources or provide some evidence to your claims, I would not want anyone getting into financial trouble regarding taxes.

But if there is no one watching the hen house, well that's news to me.

Regards

I agree: It makes NO SENSE!! If only they allowed Enforcement people to go online and see. Insane isn't it? It doesn't get any easier than when they're bragging about it. "thousands of cars sold-not a dealer" say's one guy who sells cars. "selling for a friend" is another one. Write and call the Governor. I have. Good luck.
They've reassigned all the Boat Enforcement people into now doing business audits. No more Boat riding, walking docks, etc. In office only. They've got John Cacciatore up in Tallahassee combing through paperwork of those who comply-but chase nobody who doesn't bother. They ONLY know what you tell them. They'll be the first to tell you this is true.
BTW- I know BIG business's here in Miami that only accept payments in cash, and brag that they don't pay the State anything and haven't -EVER. Pretty amazing to me.

Not as profitable by any means! The ex-head said she used to bring in $300k-400k in revenue annually from boat enforcement, but now would be lucky to bring in her salary. Frustrating for us all. I'm a native Floridian and am pissed when carpetbaggers come here and use our facilities, and don't contribute!!!

Yes- my 30 years of owning a Brokerage in Miami and much personal experience with the Dept of Revenue, and having the "head of Boat Enforcement" on my cell phone speed dial.

It's not news to those scofflaws by any means. You've heard of ID theft haven't you? It's quite illegal, but if the bad guys can pound the IRS out of tax refunds from 1.5 million people (including me!!) then be assured sales tax is at the bottom of criminals list of concerns. Just go on Ebay and Craigs list and see them all advertising Boats and Cars for sale in Florida, and ask them if they collect sales tax, or give affidavits.

You need any other "news"?

 

[pilothouse king]

The word "may" is problematic in case law.

I encourage you to get real counsel and not rely on me or another internet "expert" The advice is generally worth what you pay for it

As I stated I HAVE a link on my site to an expert under "yacht registry". I've been doing this for 40 years. You?

 

[BandB]

I find this thread somewhat disturbing. The first part of minimizing taxes by knowing what the laws and rules are and complying in the least punitive manner possible I have no issue at all with. One of the reasons I live in Florida is no state income tax.

However, the talk of not paying a tax that one knows is required because enforcement is weak or because one can probably get by with it is most disturbing to me. Especially the fact one would openly discuss and even encourage such on a public forum. I guess I just feel a certain obligation to comply with laws and to pay the taxes I'm required to. I'm proud to say I don't cheat on taxes in any manner. That's not being holier than thou, it's just being honest and fulfilling my obligation.

Now for getting accurate information as to paying sales and use taxes on a boat purchased in one state and moved to another, I'd go to the state tax departments web site of each state and I think you'll find it clearly spelled out.

 

[BruceK]

I find this thread somewhat disturbing. The first part of minimizing taxes by knowing what the laws and rules are and complying in the least punitive manner possible I have no issue at all with...However, the talk of not paying a tax that one knows is required because enforcement is weak or because one can probably get by with it is most disturbing to me.

B & B, you well identify the difference between lawful tax avoidance or minimization, and out and out evasion. Whether a tax is adequately enforced or not cannot affect the liability to pay the tax.

 

[pilothouse king]

I find this thread somewhat disturbing. The first part of minimizing taxes by knowing what the laws and rules are and complying in the least punitive manner possible I have no issue at all with. One of the reasons I live in Florida is no state income tax.

However, the talk of not paying a tax that one knows is required because enforcement is weak or because one can probably get by with it is most disturbing to me. Especially the fact one would openly discuss and even encourage such on a public forum. I guess I just feel a certain obligation to comply with laws and to pay the taxes I'm required to. I'm proud to say I don't cheat on taxes in any manner. That's not being holier than thou, it's just being honest and fulfilling my obligation.

Now for getting accurate information as to paying sales and use taxes on a boat purchased in one state and moved to another, I'd go to the state tax departments web site of each state and I think you'll find it clearly spelled out.

I recommend you do as I have, and contact Governor Rick Scott and request he crack down on these scofflaws. It's not right nor fair to us Floridians. The yacht brokers had to lobby him not to eliminate licensing too. It's quite frustrating to witness and report a crime to be told by the authorities "sorry, nothing we can do". You don't even want to know about public corruption down here or DEA. You don't know "disturbing" yet.

 

[catalinajack]

My wife and I are about to purchase a $175,000 boat in Florida. We recently became legal residents of Florida using a St. Brendan's address as we will soon be "homeless", that is, we will be full-time liveaboards with no land-based home ownership. I refuse as a matter of legal and moral principle to evade taxes and I will willingly pay the Florida sales tax on my purchase. Tax avoidance is quite different and quite legal. The SCOTUS many years ago recognized the difference between evasion (a crime) and avoidance (good tax planning). I don't like paying taxes any less than anyone else but if one is to take advantage of all that is the United States, I believe that we should pay all that is due and owing, but not a penny more. Yes, I don't like paying for much of what is spent in my name but it goes with the deal, that is, living in the best there is in this world. I have no patience for those who rationalize cheating on their taxes especially those who are "devoutly" religious except when it comes to a "buck". My grandmother had a saying: Money will make the blind see!

 

[RT Firefly]

Greetings,
Mr. catalinajack. Welcome aboard.

 

[denverd0n]

...use tax may be due upon importation into Florida, under either of the following conditions:
• The boat belongs to a Florida resident...

This refers to someone who was a Florida resident at the time they bought the boat. So, if you are a Florida resident, you can't buy a boat in Kentucky, leave it there for a year or so, bring it to Florida, and avoid paying tax on it. As a Florida resident, the 6-months rule does not apply.

In your case you were not a Florida resident when you bought the boat. You were not a Florida resident for all of the time (more than 6 months, I gather) that you were using it in Kentucky. You can now bring the boat to Florida, and become a Florida resident, and you will not owe use tax on it. You will only have to register it with the state, and the fee for that should be no more than about $200.

I also feel compelled to weigh in on the discussion of tax evasion. Suggesting to others, in a public forum, that they should violate the law is just lame. That's the nicest way that I can put it. Trust me, if you happen to be the one in a million who gets caught, fined, and whatever for your tax evasion, saying "but the guy on the internet told me it would be okay!" is not going to impress the judge.

 

[Gulf Comanche]

Who suggested that anyone evade the law? All I see is how things work in real life re paying boat taxes in Florida.

 

[denverd0n]

Who suggested that anyone evade the law?

Someone posted that the OP should just bring his boat to Florida and not pay the taxes. That same poster has gone on to explain at great length why anyone who did this would not be likely to get caught. That certainly sounds to me like a suggestion to evade taxes.

Irrelevant anyway, I guess, since it is pretty clear that the OP will not owe any use tax.

 

[pilothouse king]

Who suggested that anyone evade the law? All I see is how things work in real life re paying boat taxes in Florida.

Exactly. Reporting what's common knowledge of a long time problem well known by the people responsible for enforcement isn't going to make someone honest all of a sudden become a scofflaw, anymore than telling you that the border between Miami and the Bahamas is porous- is going to make you become a smuggler.

What I AM advocating though is that Florida residents contact our Governor and request that he start allowing the tax agents we have-to have access to the Internet so they can start collecting tax from all those people who boldly advertise boats and cars on Craig's List and Ebay, who aren't dealers- can't give any exemptions and are supposed to immediately collect tax. The millions of dollars missed in tax revenue VASTLY overwhelms the meager amount licensed brokers collect.

Florida legally allows SO many exemptions from paying our meager 6% sales tax that it's amazing that so many people don't avail themselves of the legal options.
As a Licensed Broker who's required (and has since it started in 1988) to pay a Brokers License fee of $500.00, plus provide a bond, every two years, PLUS is required to maintain a office with annual local City and County business licenses ($550.00 a year) hanging on the wall, AND is required to file monthly sales tax reports with the Dept of Revenue- it burns my ass to see so many people NOT bothering to do any of this, and THEY'RE being rewarded with economic bounty with impunity. Many don't even live in our State- they "fish" here-but take their booty back home. They're quite blatant about this too. Not talking just boats, but car's and motorhomes too. LOT'S of cars!!!


It's wrong. It's illegal and it's solely the Governor who's stopped what little enforcement we had. We need MORE, and he made it less.

 

[BruceK]

The OP`s question was about mail services. Try helping him with that.