Opinions? (no payment for your thoughts, just head shaking and chuckles to be sure)

[texasnielsen]

Have not seen a thread on this subject... If there has been one previously, then point me in the direction and I shall go forth and continue the due diligence in that heading... I have been looking at some of the many Hatteras yachts now available that I shall refer to as "vintage". This isn't about an engine retrofit or anything. It is about what or how one goes about establishing value. I have seen a range of pricing of the 48'-54' motor yachts from $100-$400K. Obviously (or so I thought) equipment and modern improvements would reflect differences in pricing. I recently sought the opinion of a respected internet acquaintance and receive a response that I was somewhat surprised by... It went more or less as follows - ------- "Well, the first thing that comes to mind is, “Why would anyone spend that kind of money on a boat of that age?” Look at what they spent and what they’re trying to get back. From their perspectives, lose, lose, lose. That’s the sort of project to be undertaken sanely only with a view toward longterm ownership, personal gratification, etc. Definitely not as part of any kind of rational marketing scheme. The price is easily $60,000 - $200,000 too high..." Beyond that, it was a 1980, 81 or an 1985 when they built it, it always will be. That will likely always be one of the first things you as a buyer notes. To find comparables to use for resale value analysis simply will not be possible. If it’s all as it appears, it’s probably worth considerably more other similar aged examples, but how much more and to whom? Almost certainly not to a lender or an insurer. Furthermore, if you follow the owners logic and agree that it is now a “custom” yacht due to improvements, etc., then you can expect, by definition, to find no comparable examples from that angle either. If you want to buy it and own it for at least a decade, then there are no right or wrong answers for you – other than, again, lenders and insurers. For you, it’ll be worth whatever it’s worth – to you." -------- From my perspective I only have experience with vintage autos to use as some sort of baseline when one considers the original cost of the car, and what has been done to it to improve upon the original OEM build. For a car or truck, the chassis establishes the vintage but it could be otherwise brand new in every other aspect. Engine, electronics, suspension, interior all would be considered with regard to trying to establish a new "value." Recognizing value is only what another party is wiling to pay, I am trying to figure out the economics of some of these older hulls being significantly upgraded and whether or not it is worthy of time and energy to try and establish a legitimate argument with the lender and insurer as to whether or not one can legitimately compare a modernized vessel to a hull that is still all original. Appreciate your thoughts.. We can determine my wisdom later....

 

[O C Diver]

50K to 200K would be the range for those, IMO. Having just finished an exhastive search for my boat, there are really nice trawlers of that size in the 300K to 400K range that are half the age.

Ted

 

[N4712]

We met a couple in Spanish Cay last year. They had 53 Hatt M/Y, they said it was the worst sea boat and would rock them to death.

 

[texasnielsen]

We met a couple in Spanish Cay last year. They had 53 Hatt M/Y, they said it was the worst sea boat and would rock them to death.

That was one of the concerns I was wondering about. Seems like they would be susceptible to a lot of roll.

 

[texasnielsen]

50K to 200K would be the range for those, IMO. Having just finished an exhastive search for my boat, there are really nice trawlers of that size in the 300K to 400K range that are half the age. Ted

:thumbs up:

 

[CPseudonym]

There was a thread recently with a YouTube video showing the re-power of a 53 Hatt with new Yanmars and gennies. I'm willing to bet that owner has significantly north of 400k in that 53'.

What does a brand new Hatt 60 MY cost? Nearest comp as they no longer make smaller motor yachts.

Re-fitting boats is not intended to turn a profit for the owner, they're labors of love. By the same token if you want a boat in re-fit condition expect to pay for it. If the asking price is too steep buy a cheap one and re-fit to taste but don't be surprised by the size of the yard bill. The banks and insurance companies understand better than boat owners that condition is everything.

As for the comment about Hatt's not being a good "sea boat", I can only say that a Nordhavn makes a terrible "picnic cruiser". Horses for courses and not everyone is "going to sea".

 

[N4712]

As for the comment about Hatt's not being a good "sea boat", I can only say that a Nordhavn makes a terrible "picnic cruiser". Horses for courses and not everyone is "going to sea".

I was letting him know what I've heard, and of course I don't know his intentions of cruising. As for picnic cruising with the Nordy, if you consider hopping across the gulfsream and anchoring for lunch she's great.

 

[Andy G]

Have not seen a thread on this subject... If there has been one previously, then point me in the direction and I shall go forth and continue the due diligence in that heading... I have been looking at some of the many Hatteras yachts now available that I shall refer to as "vintage".

This isn't about an engine retrofit or anything. It is about what or how one goes about establishing value. I have seen a range of pricing of the 48'-54' motor yachts from $100-$400K. Obviously (or so I thought) equipment and modern improvements would reflect differences in pricing.

I recently sought the opinion of a respected internet acquaintance and receive a response that I was somewhat surprised by... It went more or less as follows - ------- "Well, the first thing that comes to mind is, “Why would anyone spend that kind of money on a boat of that age?” Look at what they spent and what they’re trying to get back.

From their perspectives, lose, lose, lose. That’s the sort of project to be undertaken sanely only with a view toward longterm ownership, personal gratification, etc. Definitely not as part of any kind of rational marketing scheme. The price is easily $60,000 - $200,000 too high..." Beyond that, it was a 1980, 81 or an 1985 when they built it, it always will be.

That will likely always be one of the first things you as a buyer notes. To find comparables to use for resale value analysis simply will not be possible. If it’s all as it appears, it’s probably worth considerably more other similar aged examples, but how much more and to whom? Almost certainly not to a lender or an insurer.

Furthermore, if you follow the owners logic and agree that it is now a “custom” yacht due to improvements, etc., then you can expect, by definition, to find no comparable examples from that angle either. If you want to buy it and own it for at least a decade, then there are no right or wrong answers for you – other than, again, lenders and insurers. For you, it’ll be worth whatever it’s worth – to you." --------

From my perspective I only have experience with vintage autos to use as some sort of baseline when one considers the original cost of the car, and what has been done to it to improve upon the original OEM build. For a car or truck, the chassis establishes the vintage but it could be otherwise brand new in every other aspect. Engine, electronics, suspension, interior all would be considered with regard to trying to establish a new "value."

Recognizing value is only what another party is wiling to pay, I am trying to figure out the economics of some of these older hulls being significantly upgraded and whether or not it is worthy of time and energy to try and establish a legitimate argument with the lender and insurer as to whether or not one can legitimately compare a modernized vessel to a hull that is still all original. Appreciate your thoughts.. We can determine my wisdom later....

Paragraphs are good.

 

[FF]

One of the biggest JOYs of an older boat is the builders didnt trust or kno that much about GRP.

These early boats , built when polly was about 17c a pound are heavy and thick..
This is GOOD long term for hull life. A bit more costly cruising on the pin, no problem at SL 1.Trawler style.

On inspected vessels ( kill over 6 at a time) a 400% margin requirement just means the boat is STIFF enough for long long service life.

The simplicity of early boats IF maintained means fewer repair bills.

As engines continue to get smaller and lighter , and folks realize they dont need a 3000lb engine for 10,000 -30,000 hours , transplants become easier to visualize.

Value to me ?

Electric toys ,,,ZERO

House crap dragged aboard ,,,ZERO Tho a microwave has its uses.

Teak or other eye candy external wood to maintain ,,Zero

Mechanical steering a plus , hyd steering a minus. Best AP service with mechanical.

Hyd windlass a plus along with hyd AC generation from the main engine and hyd bow thruster .
Electric stuff a minus.

I give a bonus for KISS and a big minus for complex , with no paperwork, thrown in by ignorant boat yard after boat yard with extra layers from owner DIY .

 

[RT Firefly]

Greetings,
Mr. t. Your acquaintance is absolutely correct... "value is only what another party is wiling to pay". That being said, some owners want to recoup a part of their "investment", while in spite of having cost the owner $$ are as Mr. FF puts it worth essentially zero. Be a realistic buyer and try to find a realistic seller.

 

[twistedtree]

Paragraphs are good.

Thank you!! I just stopped reading about 1/4 of the way through the original post. Maybe it's interesting, but too difficult to read......

 

[RickB]

Paragraphs are good.

Not reposting the entire lengthy blurb would have been a much better idea.

 

[RickB]

FF wrote:

On inspected vessels ( kill over 6 at a time) a 400% margin requirement just means the boat is STIFF enough for long long service life .

For those interested in what an inspected vessel is and what standards or requirements apply, the link is to an excellent document prepared by the CG as a guide to those who wish to build a new boat or obtain a Certificate of Inspection (COI) for an existing boat.

I will refrain from making any other comment.

 

[ranger58sb]

Paragraphs are good.

Yes. Thanks, Andy, I could actually read your "paragraphed" version, but not the original...

Yes, Tex, buying (for example) an old $100K Hatt and doing $100K worth of work to bring it up to your standards... leaves you with a $105K Hatt.

OTOH, you'd have the boat/features/fixtures/etc. you want -- and everything would work. Lots of good to be said about "it all works." And your ride might be comparable in features and usability to a new model $2M Hatt.

-Chris

 

[Ben]

Requirements and Sensitivity Analysis

1. What do you want to do with the boat? (List them)

2. What conditions should it be required to handle? (List)

3. How much time will you spend on the boat?

4. How comfortable are you with the maintenance versus how much you are willing to pay someone else? (list systems you feel comfortable maintaining yourself)?

5. How much are you willing to pay for sales price and annual dockage, maintenance, and provisioning?

Rank all these things. High, Medium, Low. Then find the boats that match the best. Pick your favorite. Pay the man.

 

[texasnielsen]

Requirements and Sensitivity Analysis 1. What do you want to do with the boat? (List them) 2. What conditions should it be required to handle? (List) 3. How much time will you spend on the boat? 4. How comfortable are you with the maintenance versus how much you are willing to pay someone else? (list systems you feel comfortable maintaining yourself)? 5. How much are you willing to pay for sales price and annual dockage, maintenance, and provisioning? Rank all these things. High, Medium, Low. Then find the boats that match the best. Pick your favorite. Pay the man.

Thanks to all who have responded. My original posting seems to have lost it's formatting after an edit was made; sorry for it's length.

As Ben and others have suggested, like any tool, it is critical to understand how it will be used. I suspect I may be hedging my bets some as I continually redefine and consider what I "think" I want to use the boat for [today] and what [tomorrow's] needs may uncover after so many miles of use with the more I learn of coastal cruising under power ( my ocean experience is via sail for a few years as a crew hand from the east coast of FL throughout the Bahamas and Turks & Caicos Isles when I was a younger man. Wasn't my boat and I traveled with only a backpack then.) The challenge for me seems to be - budget; what's available; and what's realistic. I believe in due diligence but want to try and avoid waiting for the "perfect" boat. I.e., time on the water is more important to me than time spent at the dock dreaming the boat I want I can afford (now there's a dream! )

Thanks again for the insights...

Gary

 

[denverd0n]

...buying (for example) an old $100K Hatt and doing $100K worth of work to bring it up to your standards... leaves you with a $105K Hatt.

Exactly. And yet a lot of sellers will imagine that they should be able to get $205k for the boat.

 

[Phil Fill]

Well, being I own one of those older boats, my view point might be one sided. Every three years we pull the boat, have the hull surveyed, and an in water survey/valuation done to insurance purposes, and sort of get an idea of value. The Eagle is present surveyed/valued and insured for is the same value for the last 10+ years. Like most things the value drops just so far, and over the years there are less and less comparable boats on the market.

I realize to will take a buyer that is looking for a boat like the Eagle, it may take years, but with each passing year there are less boats, the demand for fuel efficient trawler keep going up, and we will be in no hurry to sell it as its paid for. The biggest expense is moorage, insurance, heat/diesel, then maintenance. 18 year ago no boat wanted to be called a trawler, now almost every boat is trying to be called a trawler. So it’s supply and demand. Demand is going up and the supply is going down.

 

[texasnielsen]

Unless you build the boat yourself the hard part will be judging the Requirements vs the Desirements.

Just make a list of DEAL KILLERS , and plan on compromising all the rest.

The above was taken from a pre-purchase thread but I couldn't resist reposting here -
"requirements versus desirements" . . . . love it! Thanks "FF"

 

[jungpeter]

FF wrote:

Quote:
On inspected vessels ( kill over 6 at a time) a 400% margin requirement just means the boat is STIFF enough for long long service life .


To RickB: thanks for the decode. I have absolutely no idea what "kill over 6 at a time" has to do with "400% margin requirement..."

I, also, will not add additional comment to this thread.

Regards,

Pete

 

[Capthead]

There was one in my marina that the owner passed and the heirs sold. It went for 125K and it was too high IMO for that boat. The PO never took it out, never painted the bottom, never ran engines, never never never.

I would walk past it going to my boat and always noticed how shallow the bow was in the water. I'm sure it was a rolly boat.

 

[texasnielsen]

With healhustler's word of wisdom ringing in my ears from when I first signed on to this forum ("Read between our egos for important information.") thanks to those who took the time to provide some useful input. . . . sort of like traveling at sea at night without the benefit of a full moon and good charts. Ya never know what you may bump in to.

 

[kulas44]

I think, OUPV, 6 pack, uninspected vessell, etc. was the intention. Safety margin is whatever the inspector says it needs to be, sometimes with data to back it up. There is a lot to be said for just buying a decent old boat and fixin her up. A lot of nice boats are out there, just get one that you will be able to upgraded yourself. It helps if you like doing it.

 

[pilothouse king]

When it comes to Hatteras Yachts, the number one guru of all time is Frank Gordon of Frank Gordon Yachts in Ft. Lauderdale (since 1959). Frank has been specializing in these forever and has the most incredible memory of any human I've met. You can cold call him anytime and ask him about any big Hatteras, and he can usually reel off the previous names back from new, and tell you any and everything about them. It's quite amazing. He's quicker than any computer, and he isn't young anymore either. Seriously- IF you want to know anything about Hatteras, call him up on the phone. (he's not that much into emails).

 

[Nomad Willy]

Peter Young,
You saved me the trouble of looking you up by posting here. I see you have the same Canoe Cove 53. We have the W30 in the avatar or perhaps we met when we had the Albin ????.

No need to limit your posting here but after a while you'll learn who barks and who is a positive in your life. Lots and lots of guys (and even some girls) here to read or chat with. I'll PM you. We were at the Sisters yesterday.

FF yes I agree chain/sprocket and cable w large bronze pulleys is the best steering system. Much more expensive that push-pull cable and more expensive than hydraulic as well. If I considered my hydraulic system a significant problem I'd convert to chain and cable. The big downside to C&C is the installation. Would be a big job and consume lots of time. The thing I don't like about my hydraulic system is the high frictional losses from the oil seals. I made the mistake I rarely make and that is to install stuff that is too big and "heavy duty" for the app. Both my helm pump and rudder cylinder are fit for a 45' boat w about 4 times the displacement. My mistake.